Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 109343 times)

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1625 on: February 18, 2024, 08:03:23 PM »
The betrayal of Ukrainians will not be forgotten, we know their names, we remember their faces....and life is a bitch, karma will catch up with them. Russian disinfo has done a job on the west. Next Saturday I will be protesting outside the Russian embassy.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1628 on: February 20, 2024, 11:43:23 AM »
Russia started the war when it invaded Crimea
Putin denied invading Crimea, saying the people of Crimea voted to join Russia after the Maidan coup, because they didn't want to be part of Ukraine anymore.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1629 on: February 20, 2024, 11:47:48 AM »
Russia's invasion was unnecessary
It was reported yesterday that following the capture of Avdiivka, no shells fell on civilians in Yasynuvata, just north of Donetsk city, for the first time.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1630 on: February 20, 2024, 11:51:16 AM »
If you're going by 'who first fired a shot' the separatists caused it. It's the Ukrainian government's job to enforce peace within its territory.
If government buildings in Kiev can be taken over by force, why can't government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk?

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1631 on: February 20, 2024, 11:54:35 AM »
Legally it was none of Russia's business (although, on a practical level, of course, they'd already been financially, politically, morally and logistically supporting those separatists to foment unrest).
Territory that was previously Russian is Russia's business.
The unrest didn't need fomenting, though. People saw the Maidan riots on their TVs and made their decision.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1632 on: February 20, 2024, 12:04:00 PM »
Putin denied invading Crimea, saying the people of Crimea voted to join Russia after the Maidan coup, because they didn't want to be part of Ukraine anymore.

If the people of Crimea voted to join Russia how come no-one has any reports of the vote happening? How come the results were not posted? How come forces in the Crimea fought back against the invasion?

PUTIN LIES! When are you going to accept that? Is he the only one, of course not, though I'd argue in this situation he's probably the most egregious, although Dmitri Medvedev seems to want to give him some competiong - presumably until he finds an appropriate window to fall out of because he's become popular dangerous.

It was reported yesterday that following the capture of Avdiivka, no shells fell on civilians in Yasynuvata, just north of Donetsk city, for the first time.

Because the Russians have already achieved their aim in that area, and are relocating? Because the Russians were all drunk after celebrating their great military victory of losing somewhere between  10 and 12 times as many soldiers during the capture of (checks notes) rubble that they've reduced a thriving community to. Because they've run out of shells that actually work? Because they've run out of guns that work having tried to fire even poorer quality than their own munitions that they've overpaid for from North Korea? Because their propoganda machine sees an opportunity to try to bolster the obvious bullshit by ceasing shelling for a day or two? Or, perhaps, because it was really the Ukraine all along.

One of these is not like the others. One of these alleges a degree of Russian competency which is difficult but not impossible to justify. One of these is true. I suspect they're all the same one, but craven, snivelling, Putin-licking opinions are available.

If government buildings in Kiev can be taken over by force, why can't government buildings in Donetsk and Luhansk?

BY UKRAINIANS, IN UKRAINE, IN AN INTERNAL UKRAINIAN DISPUTE. At this point I can't tell if it's genuine stupidity or borderline sociopathic mendacity, it's truly Trumpian. Congratulations, I can't tell if you're genuinely a retard or if your apologism for the unjustifiable is deliberate.

Territory that was previously Russian is Russia's business.

No. Just like Gibraltar is not Spanish, except that it was Moorish before that, except before that it was Gaulish, except before that it was Roman, except before that it was Phoenician...

Quote
The unrest didn't need fomenting, though. People saw the Maidan riots on their TVs and made their decision.

People taking part in the Maidan riots was their decision, it was a decision against a leadership that, in defiance of their election pledges, suddenly turned against the civilised side of Europe and started cosying up to the serial-invading authoritarian populist shitbag of Russia. The Russian preinvasion activities in Ukraine have been well documented, you can pretend that it's all 'Western Lies', you might genuinely believe it's all 'Western Lies', but the absolute facts remain.

Whatever was happening in Ukraine, a nation recognised by all the countries of the world, including Russia, through the UN, and with well-established borders was a Ukrainian matter and, short of a request from Ukraine for assistance, or a UN mandate for intervention, it was not justified for Putin to invade. Twice. Like he did in Chechnya. Twice. And Moldova. And Georgia.

O.
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1633 on: February 20, 2024, 12:08:18 PM »

Because the Russians have already achieved their aim in that area, and are relocating? Because the Russians were all drunk after celebrating their great military victory of losing somewhere between  10 and 12 times as many soldiers during the capture of (checks notes) rubble that they've reduced a thriving community to. Because they've run out of shells that actually work? Because they've run out of guns that work having tried to fire even poorer quality than their own munitions that they've overpaid for from North Korea? Because their propoganda machine sees an opportunity to try to bolster the obvious bullshit by ceasing shelling for a day or two? Or, perhaps, because it was really the Ukraine all along.

Wasn't Spud referring to Ukrainian shelling of Yasynuvata?

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1634 on: February 20, 2024, 12:32:55 PM »
Wasn't Spud referring to Ukrainian shelling of Yasynuvata?

That was his allegation, yes. The Russians and the Ukrainians have been consistently blaming each other for the shelling of civilian targets. Ukraine has had a number of off-target shelling incidents which have resulted in civilian casualties - whether they've admitted to all of them isn't entirely clear at this stage, but in principle they're acknowledging that they do happen. Russia has not, but evidence from elsewhere in the conflict suggests that they have employed a policy of deliberately targetting civilian infrastructure repeatedly, as well as having a higher rate of inaccurate fire.

Who is more likely to have been shelling civilians in this area - that's a question many, both military and journalists, have been asking. Ukraine is targetting military targets in the area, Russia has fewer 'valid' targets but has been alleged to shell areas it ostensibly controls, with motives suggested ranging from quelling resistance to setting up these very allegations against Ukraine. That the Ukrainians have withdrawn from Avdiivka doesn't put them out of range of Yasynuvata, so it's not that they're incapable of maintaining any shelling they've been undertaking (although it does not serve any immediately useful tactical purpose following the withdrawal).

It could be that they've stopped shelling, in part to preserve stocks with their current ammunition concerns, and that it was a significantly higher rate of inaccuracy from them than we've seen anywhere else in the conflict that was causing this, or it could be that the Russians have stopped firing in this area for their own ammunition preservation and/or to relocate and this has caused the cessation of shells hitting the civilian areas. Or it could be that the Russian leadership has identified a potential story to sell and has decided to stop shelling in conjunction with the change in circumstances to try to paint the Ukrainian forces in a bad light.

It's difficult to be definitive this close to the events, especially with deliberate misdirection and information management on both sides, but I know which of those I give more credence to, under the circumstances.

O.
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1635 on: February 20, 2024, 12:41:14 PM »
That was his allegation, yes. The Russians and the Ukrainians have been consistently blaming each other for the shelling of civilian targets. Ukraine has had a number of off-target shelling incidents which have resulted in civilian casualties - whether they've admitted to all of them isn't entirely clear at this stage, but in principle they're acknowledging that they do happen. Russia has not, but evidence from elsewhere in the conflict suggests that they have employed a policy of deliberately targetting civilian infrastructure repeatedly, as well as having a higher rate of inaccurate fire.

Who is more likely to have been shelling civilians in this area - that's a question many, both military and journalists, have been asking. Ukraine is targetting military targets in the area, Russia has fewer 'valid' targets but has been alleged to shell areas it ostensibly controls, with motives suggested ranging from quelling resistance to setting up these very allegations against Ukraine. That the Ukrainians have withdrawn from Avdiivka doesn't put them out of range of Yasynuvata, so it's not that they're incapable of maintaining any shelling they've been undertaking (although it does not serve any immediately useful tactical purpose following the withdrawal).

It could be that they've stopped shelling, in part to preserve stocks with their current ammunition concerns, and that it was a significantly higher rate of inaccuracy from them than we've seen anywhere else in the conflict that was causing this, or it could be that the Russians have stopped firing in this area for their own ammunition preservation and/or to relocate and this has caused the cessation of shells hitting the civilian areas. Or it could be that the Russian leadership has identified a potential story to sell and has decided to stop shelling in conjunction with the change in circumstances to try to paint the Ukrainian forces in a bad light.

It's difficult to be definitive this close to the events, especially with deliberate misdirection and information management on both sides, but I know which of those I give more credence to, under the circumstances.

O.

Thanks - missed the subtlety of your response. Not for the first time  :)

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1636 on: February 20, 2024, 01:00:59 PM »
Thanks - missed the subtlety of your response. Not for the first time  :)

To be fair, it wasn't really as spelt out as that in my head when I posted it - given that it tends to just be me ((and Ad O, at times) vs Spud here, nuance isn't typically of much use!

O.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1637 on: February 20, 2024, 01:16:38 PM »
Putin denied invading Crimea, saying the people of Crimea voted to join Russia after the Maidan coup, because they didn't want to be part of Ukraine anymore.

Lol!🤡
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1638 on: February 20, 2024, 01:21:18 PM »
Territory that was previously Russian is Russia's business.
The unrest didn't need fomenting, though. People saw the Maidan riots on their TVs and made their decision.

Is Russia some sort of special case that it doesn't need to follow international law? Otherwise, you're talking bollocks again.

Meanwhile, you might want to read this:

https://snyder.substack.com/p/putins-genocidal-myth?r=f9j4c&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1639 on: February 24, 2024, 01:39:11 PM »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1640 on: February 25, 2024, 11:15:56 AM »
Wasn't Spud referring to Ukrainian shelling of Yasynuvata?
Yes, I read it on that terrible website, Tass. Oher journalists located in Donbas verify it and post on YouTube. One thing the Ukrainians do is hit a civilian building, then fire again at first responders.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1641 on: February 25, 2024, 11:46:21 AM »
Yes, I read it on that terrible website, Tass. Oher journalists located in Donbas verify it and post on YouTube. One thing the Ukrainians do is hit a civilian building, then fire again at first responders.

The Russians could stop all of this straight away by stopping their invasion of Ukraine.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1642 on: February 25, 2024, 12:11:16 PM »
Yes, I read it on that terrible website, Tass. Oher journalists located in Donbas verify it and post on YouTube. One thing the Ukrainians do is hit a civilian building, then fire again at first responders.

That's the Russian tactics. Russia always blames others of what it does itself.
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1643 on: February 25, 2024, 12:20:06 PM »
Yes, I read it on that terrible website, Tass. Oher journalists located in Donbas verify it and post on YouTube. One thing the Ukrainians do is hit a civilian building, then fire again at first responders.

You forgot to add 'according to Tass' to your last sentence.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1644 on: February 27, 2024, 01:39:11 AM »
Sweden clear to join NATO after Hungary agrees.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68405893

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1645 on: February 27, 2024, 03:05:17 AM »
Sweden clear to join NATO after Hungary agrees.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68405893

Another Putin masterstroke!
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1646 on: February 27, 2024, 09:16:08 AM »
Just your run-of-the-mill tweets from your run-of-the-mill Russian senator on Musk's Twitter.

https://twitter.com/Rogozin/status/1761612503966941316?s=19

https://twitter.com/Rogozin/status/1761981639016509632?s=19
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1647 on: February 27, 2024, 07:24:11 PM »
Hardly surprising that ground troops as an option are being scorned


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68417223

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1648 on: February 28, 2024, 04:21:47 AM »
Hardly surprising that ground troops as an option are being scorned


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68417223

Macron is right. Nothing should be ruled out. It doesn't mean that we want to send troops there, just that we're prepared to if we have to in order to stop Russia's imperial ambitions. Otherwise, we just send the message that we don't have the stomach to defend the values we believe in.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 04:56:09 AM by ad_orientem »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1649 on: February 28, 2024, 07:38:57 AM »
Macron is right. Nothing should be ruled out. It doesn't mean that we want to send troops there, juwhat would st that we're prepared to if we have to in order to stop Russia's imperial ambitions. Otherwise, we just send the message that we don't have the stomach to defend the values we believe in.
I don't think 'we' do in that sense. I think if most of the nations of NATO were to send troops to kill and be killed in what would amount to a world war, then their govts would lose any elections following that.

'We' live each day with a world where thr 'values we believe in' are compromised because there is not s realistic way of avoiding that. And any action that is taken to degend such values jeopardises other values we hold.