Arming the Ukrainians

[ad_orientem]

I don't think 'we' do in that sense. I think if most of the nations of NATO were to send troops to kill and be killed in what would amount to a world war, then their govts would lose any elections following that.

'We' live each day with a world where thr 'values we believe in' are compromised because there is not s realistic way of avoiding that. And any action that is taken to degend such values jeopardises other values we hold.

I'd say the risk of a world war is preferable to the alternative, that being a world where nations like Russia are not held accountable for their crimes and nations are sacrificed for fear of escalation.

[Nearly Sane]

I'd say the risk of a world war is preferable to the alternative, that being a world where nations like Russia are not held accountable for their crimes and nations are sacrificed for fear of escalation.

Which is a false dichotomy. The support for the Ukraine, while you may not think it enough, is an attempt to hold Russia accountable. The type of purity you are arguong for in politics only happens in video games.

[ad_orientem]

Rumours Gerasimov may have been killed in a Storm Shadow missile strike on a command post in Sevastopol. Big, if true. The Ukrainian Air Force is cat posting on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/KpsZSU/status/1742940339504091416?s=19

Still hasn't been seen in public since.

[ad_orientem]

Just in case it was in any doubt. Take look at the map behind as well.

https://twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1764603975402135578?s=19

[Sebastian Toe]

Cough.

[Spud]

Cough.

The last bit about just being interested in conquest of Ukraine. If this was the case Putin would have invaded earlier than 2022.

[ad_orientem]

The last bit about just being interested in conquest of Ukraine. If this was the case Putin would have invaded earlier than 2022.

He did. 2014.

[Outrider]

The last bit about just being interested in conquest of Ukraine. If this was the case Putin would have invaded earlier than 2022.

He was already busy invading other place under spurious justifications for much of the time, but as has been pointed out he did invade Ukraine before.

O.

[Spud]

Just in case it was in any doubt. Take look at the map behind as well.

https://twitter.com/saintjavelin/status/1764603975402135578?s=19

According to Medvedev's view, then, Canada is America.
Interesting synopsis of why world war 2 probably didn't need to happen, by Scot Horton in the first half hour of this interview. (Around 30 minutes in he makes the analogy with the US and Canada).
https://youtube.com/watch?v=bCyNbuz1DiE&si=dNSY_z9UB4lhb2dv

[Spud]

He was already busy invading other place under spurious justifications for much of the time, but as has been pointed out he did invade Ukraine before.

O.

Arguably, if he was planning in 2014 to continue a conquest of Ukraine, he wouldn't have 'invaded' those other places?

[Nearly Sane]

Pope thinks Ukraine should negotiate


https://news.sky.com/story/pope-says-ukraine-should-have-courage-of-white-flag-and-negotiate-end-to-war-with-russia-13091610

[Nearly Sane]

Arguably, if he was planning in 2014 to continue a conquest of Ukraine, he wouldn't have 'invaded' those other places?

So it's ok to randomly invade and murder people, as long as it's not planned too far on advance.

[Spud]

So it's ok to randomly invade and murder people, as long as it's not planned too far on advance.

I was offering evidence that Putin  originally wanted Donetsk and Luhansk to be independent territories rather than intended to occupy them and move on into the rest of Ukraine. As I see it, Ukraine started the murdering. Neither side should have continued it, but these are secular governments whose policy is to meet aggression with aggression.

[Aruntraveller]

I was offering evidence that Putin  originally wanted Donetsk and Luhansk to be independent territories rather than intended to occupy them and move on into the rest of Ukraine. As I see it, Ukraine started the murdering. Neither side should have continued it, but these are secular governments whose policy is to meet aggression with aggression.

Yes well as far as I see you don't have a strong grasp of facts, just conspiracy theories.

[ad_orientem]

I was offering evidence that Putin  originally wanted Donetsk and Luhansk to be independent territories rather than intended to occupy them and move on into the rest of Ukraine. As I see it, Ukraine started the murdering. Neither side should have continued it, but these are secular governments whose policy is to meet aggression with aggression.

Oh, don't tell me...

[jeremyp]

I was offering evidence that Putin  originally wanted Donetsk and Luhansk to be independent territories rather than intended to occupy them and move on into the rest of Ukraine. As I see it, Ukraine started the murdering. Neither side should have continued it, but these are secular governments whose policy is to meet aggression with aggression.

Who cares what he originally wanted. In 2022, he wanted to overthrow the legitimate government of Ukraine, and make it part of the greater Russian empire.

[Outrider]

Arguably, if he was planning in 2014 to continue a conquest of Ukraine, he wouldn't have 'invaded' those other places?

I plan on having lasagne for dinner tomorrow, that doesn't in any way stop me from having dinner today, nor from making sure my Asda delivery has beef mince included. Activity today is a reason to plan for tomorrow but to not fulfil those plans today, that's a reality that even Putin can't spin.

You, apparently, want to try, though, so crack on.

O.

[Spud]

I plan on having lasagne for dinner tomorrow, that doesn't in any way stop me from having dinner today, nor from making sure my Asda delivery has beef mince included. Activity today is a reason to plan for tomorrow but to not fulfil those plans today, that's a reality that even Putin can't spin.

You, apparently, want to try, though, so crack on.

O.

Planning invasions of neighbouring countries is not comparable with with planning essential activities like meals.

[Aruntraveller]

Planning invasions of neighbouring countries is not comparable with with planning essential activities like meals.

No it is significantly more important. The real question is why you continue to support and defend Putin's murderous regime.

[Outrider]

Planning invasions of neighbouring countries is not comparable with with planning essential activities like meals.

On what basis? My mother's family are from the Dunfermline area, and I can quite easily picture any of them commenting that 'Putin's had more foreign invasions than I've had hot dinners...'

Rational people plan dinners. Rational people do not plan invasions of foreign nations. Rational people do not invent justifications for MULTIPLE invasions of MULTIPLE countries. Rational people do not scrabble around for reasons to justify someone else's baseless multiple invasions of multiple countries.

It's not the activity that doesn't compare, it's the individuals - in this instance you and Putin, seeing as you appear to need it spelling out - which was the point that was being made.

Of course, on the evidence presented, my dinner planning is a quantum leap ahead of Putin's plans for the invasion of Ukraine, but that's a different sort of ineptitude...

O.

[Spud]

Okay, but that we plan meals in advance doesn't prove that Russia was planning a conquest of Ukraine in 2014. But the fact that Russia didn't recognise the sovereignty of Donetsk and Luhansk until 2022, eight years after they declared independence, is strong evidence that Russia wasn't planning that conquest.

[Outrider]

Okay, but that we plan meals in advance doesn't prove that Russia was planning a conquest of Ukraine in 2014.

Firstly - not 'conquest', invasion. Which they did.

Secondlly - no-one suggested that was the fact. What was suggested was that they might have been planning it earlier, but had to delay because they were too busy invading other places. You know, because of their overwhelmingly peaceful, entirely justifiable historical conduct, and all that.

But the fact that Russia didn't recognise the sovereignty of Donetsk and Luhansk until 2022, eight years after they declared independence, is strong evidence that Russia wasn't planning that conquest.

The fact that they had troops in Crimea eight years earlier is stronger evidence that they had their eyes on annexing at least parts of Ukraine, if not all of it. They didn't recognise the sovereignty of Donetsk or Luhansk because a) it gave them a political veil of deniability, and b) they didn't need to because they had functional control already. They formally recognised those territories when they did to give a political justification for their second invasion. You are still making the mistake of assuming that we are going to believe the Russian party line - I can't tell if you do or if you're just willing to lie for them.

O.

[ad_orientem]

You are still making the mistake of assuming that we are going to believe the Russian party line - I can't tell if you do or if you're just willing to lie for them.

O.

My guess: Spud is genuinely pro-Russian because, being alt-right, he sees the FSB agent Kirill backs Putin, Russia has anti gay laws, people beat up gays on the street, and domestic abuse has been decriminalised. tRaDiTiOnAl VaLuOos!

[Aruntraveller]

My guess: Spud is genuinely pro-Russian because, being alt-right, he sees the FSB agent Kirill backs Putin, Russia has anti gay laws, people beat up gays on the street, and domestic abuse has been decriminalised. tRaDiTiOnAl VaLuOos!

These thoughts have been swirling around in my mind also.

[Spud]

The fact that they had troops in Crimea eight years earlier is stronger evidence that they had their eyes on annexing at least parts of Ukraine, if not all of it.

The troops made a referendum possible, so the people could decide whether to go back to being part of Russia.