Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 109183 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1800 on: May 30, 2024, 03:57:46 PM »
But what benefits Trump or not shouldn't be a factor. I'm not so sure the problem is Biden but rather his advisor Sullivan. Blinken has quite a lot of authority though and I think he'll get this pushed through. This is the most stupid and immoral self-imposed red line.
If you think thar a Trump presidency would reduce support for the Ukraine, then it's surely a factor on the longer term?

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1801 on: May 30, 2024, 04:52:41 PM »
If you think thar a Trump presidency would reduce support for the Ukraine, then it's surely a factor on the longer term?

I'm not really sure how this would benefit Trump.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1802 on: May 30, 2024, 05:32:57 PM »
Then he tried to save face by making a pact with Poland. If he hadn't don't that, we wouldn't have been drawn into the war, neither would the US. Iirc, Hitler wanted some cities where there were Germans living, and to make up for Germany being humiliated after WW1. We don't know that he wanted the rest of Europe and Russia.
Yes we do. We know it because he invaded Eastern Europe and Russia. Had he been successful, by the way, his plans were to kill everybody who lived there to make room for Germans.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1803 on: May 30, 2024, 06:53:35 PM »
I'm not really sure how this would benefit Trump.
Because if Biden doesn't act he will be portrayed as soft, and if he does it will just be claimed that the only reason he has to is because of previous weakness

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1804 on: May 31, 2024, 03:02:31 AM »
Because if Biden doesn't act he will be portrayed as soft, and if he does it will just be claimed that the only reason he has to is because of previous weakness

I see.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1805 on: May 31, 2024, 09:47:40 AM »
Yes we do. We know it because he invaded Eastern Europe and Russia. Had he been successful, by the way, his plans were to kill everybody who lived there to make room for Germans.
If the Poles had ceded Danzig (90% German population at the time) and the corridor to it, to Germany, and if Poland had ended their alliance with France (or if the French had ended it, as the French foreign minister was advocating), he might not have invaded.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig_crisis#:~:text=In%201939%2C%20the%20population%20of,Jewish%2C%20with%20380%2C000%20being%20German.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 09:50:08 AM by Spud »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1806 on: May 31, 2024, 09:49:53 AM »
If the Poles had ceded Danzig (90% German population at the time) and the corridor to it, to Germany, and if Poland had ended their alliance with France (or if the French had ended it, as the French foreign minister was advocating) the war might not have happened.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig_crisis#:~:text=In%201939%2C%20the%20population%20of,Jewish%2C%20with%20380%2C000%20being%20German.
And Germany could have just got on with the Holocaust in peace.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1807 on: May 31, 2024, 09:51:56 AM »
And Germany could have just got on with the Holocaust in peace.
No because the Jews could have escaped to Western Europe if they had needed to. But if Poland had negotiated, there may not have been a war and in that case would the holocaust still have happened?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 10:01:03 AM by Spud »

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1808 on: May 31, 2024, 09:57:13 AM »
If the Poles had ceded Danzig (90% German population at the time) and the corridor to it, to Germany, and if Poland had ended their alliance with France (or if the French had ended it, as the French foreign minister was advocating), he might not have invaded.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig_crisis#:~:text=In%201939%2C%20the%20population%20of,Jewish%2C%20with%20380%2C000%20being%20German.

No because the Jews could have escaped to Western Europe.

Are you seriously trying to rehabilitate Hitler's Nazis in order to try to make Putin look semi-reasonable? Is that really the path you want to take here?

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1809 on: May 31, 2024, 09:59:44 AM »
No because the Jews could have escaped to Western Europe.
Because the Nazis would just have waves them through. Stealing their belongings, persecuting them, removing their rights, killing those who didn't manage to escape is all fine on your moral compass.


Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1810 on: May 31, 2024, 10:02:00 AM »
Because the Nazis would just have waves them through. Stealing their belongings, persecuting them, removing their rights, killing those who didn't manage to escape is all fine on your moral compass.
no war, no holocaust

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1811 on: May 31, 2024, 10:10:06 AM »
no war, no holocaust

Firstly, why do you think they would have stopped at Danzig? They didn't stop at any of the other lines they drew, they just drew another line.

Secondly, the persecution of the Jewish people, and other groups, started long before the wars started - we have no way to know definitively if there wouldn't have been a holocaust without a war, but I'm nowhere near as confident as you are seeming that this is the case.

And stop and look at what you're doing - "Putin can't be that bad because he's not doing anything the Nazi's didn't do" is not the rhetoric masterpiece you seem to think it is. You aren't some radical revisionist historian who's suddenly understood fundamental elements that the rest of history has missed, you're a deluded tool who's a hair's breadth from holocaust denial in a quest to justify Russian expansionist aggression.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1812 on: May 31, 2024, 10:11:47 AM »
Are you seriously trying to rehabilitate Hitler's Nazis in order to try to make Putin look semi-reasonable? Is that really the path you want to take here?

O.
I did some reading, like you suggested. In particular I read about the Glazyev tapes and how they showed that Russia was involved in the counter-demonstrations in Southern and eastern Ukraine following the maidan revolution. But even this appears to have been Russia's response to a perceived threat from NATO (the conversations were held the week after the coup). And I also read that it goes back further, to 2009. But that was after NATO committed to allowing Ukraine and Georgia to join.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1813 on: May 31, 2024, 10:14:40 AM »
no war, no holocaust
Since they were already persecuting Jews before the war that seems to be a mere assertion.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1814 on: May 31, 2024, 10:25:09 AM »
Firstly, why do you think they would have stopped at Danzig? They didn't stop at any of the other lines they drew, they just drew another line.

Secondly, the persecution of the Jewish people, and other groups, started long before the wars started - we have no way to know definitively if there wouldn't have been a holocaust without a war, but I'm nowhere near as confident as you are seeming that this is the case.

And stop and look at what you're doing - "Putin can't be that bad because he's not doing anything the Nazi's didn't do" is not the rhetoric masterpiece you seem to think it is. You aren't some radical revisionist historian who's suddenly understood fundamental elements that the rest of history has missed, you're a deluded tool who's a hair's breadth from holocaust denial in a quest to justify Russian expansionist aggression.

O.
There is no point in me trying to keep up with your spin machine, bro. You misrepresent me too much - I am nowhere near holocaust denial, and I'm only answering yours and others' comparison of Putin with Hitler. I'm fundamentally arguing that Britain and the West should stay out of the war, that's why I started the thread. In fact, Dominic Cummings agrees with me on this point, so I must be right!

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1815 on: May 31, 2024, 10:45:36 AM »
I did some reading, like you suggested. In particular I read about the Glazyev tapes and how they showed that Russia was involved in the counter-demonstrations in Southern and eastern Ukraine following the maidan revolution.

And there's a tendency to accept state involvement in demonstrations that we like (i.e. Palestinian demonstrations, or Hong Kong democracy calls) and to decry as 'interference' the involvement in demonstrations we don't like. For me, states can advocate for change in other territories, that's diplomacy of a sort.

Quote
But even this appears to have been Russia's response to a perceived threat from NATO (the conversations were held the week after the coup).

For the umpteenth time, it wasn't a coup. Furthermore, what 'threat from NATO'. Russia is not under threat from NATO, Russia's plans for expansion are at threat from countries joining NATO to prevent themselves being swallowed up. NATO is not going to invade Russia, but Russia is going to invade other countries which is why (in part) they opt to join the alliance. This isn't a threat to Russia, this is a threat to Russian ambitions.

Quote
And I also read that it goes back further, to 2009. But that was after NATO committed to allowing Ukraine and Georgia to join.

Letting Johnny join your club isn't a threat to Billy. Billy feeling attacked because he wanted Johnny in his club is what, in technical terms, is called tough shit. If Russia wants people not to join NATO and join them instead, it needs to be more welcoming, not get all invadey.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1816 on: May 31, 2024, 03:41:55 PM »
Russia's reaction to US and Germany allowing Ukraine to hit targets in Russia with their weapons.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqq2zn3zw6o

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1817 on: May 31, 2024, 03:43:48 PM »
Russia's reaction to US and Germany allowing Ukraine to hit targets in Russia with their weapons.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqq2zn3zw6o

Confirmation that this is the right decision.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1818 on: May 31, 2024, 03:58:54 PM »
Confirmation that this is the right decision.
I do have to wonder if Biden decided it was a good day to announce it since it was definitely not going to be the headline.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1819 on: May 31, 2024, 04:31:38 PM »
Recently decided to go premium with my Twitter account. Took a long time to decide, with Musk being a dick, but a lot of us NAFO decided that just being on Twitter benefits Musk so let's try and use his rules to our advantange.  My own account's reach has increased so much that I can soon monetize my account through ad revenue. If I do I'll donate everything to Ukraine.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1820 on: June 01, 2024, 12:43:15 PM »

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1821 on: June 01, 2024, 01:36:43 PM »
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1822 on: June 04, 2024, 02:17:25 PM »

"'Vote or face war': Poland PM's stark warning ahead of EU election"

Easy to forget amid all the elections, and now that this isn't an election where we have a vote that it's European elections this weekend.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c88804wnn2go

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1823 on: June 05, 2024, 11:07:34 AM »
Firstly, why do you think they would have stopped at Danzig? They didn't stop at any of the other lines they drew, they just drew another line.
I'm basically taking my information from Scott Horton who is anti war, and looking it up as I go along. He says that yes Hitler was mad for power, but that his request was reasonable so wouldn't it have been better to appease him just on that request for Danzig and Poland leaving the treaty with France?

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1824 on: June 05, 2024, 11:09:47 AM »
I'm basically taking my information from Scott Horton who is anti war, and looking it up as I go along. He says that yes Hitler was mad for power, but that his request was reasonable so wouldn't it have been better to appease him just on that request for Danzig and Poland leaving the treaty with France?

That take is delusional.
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