Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 109184 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1825 on: June 05, 2024, 11:22:41 AM »
I'm basically taking my information from Scott Horton who is anti war, and looking it up as I go along. He says that yes Hitler was mad for power, but that his request was reasonable so wouldn't it have been better to appease him just on that request for Danzig and Poland leaving the treaty with France?
You see, I'm a pacifist, but that doesn't mean either that I think you can avoid war just by giving any random dictator what they want and expect them to be happy with it  or that the Nazi regime was anything other than built to persecute Jews. And you know what backs that up? History.

Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler but each demand was followed by another. And the Nazis were persecuting Jews long before the 2nd World War was started by them.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1826 on: June 05, 2024, 11:54:29 AM »
I'm basically taking my information from Scott Horton who is anti war, and looking it up as I go along. He says that yes Hitler was mad for power, but that his request was reasonable so wouldn't it have been better to appease him just on that request for Danzig and Poland leaving the treaty with France?

I'm anti-war, too, but not to the point of capitulation to unacceptable regimes.

Hitler's request was not reasonable - you don't demand control of someone else's territory at threat of invasion. The idea that appeasement would somehow pacify Hitler was shown to be a nonsense with Chamberlain's very public series of concessions which just pushed Hitler's demands further and further on. Britain gave ground before his premiership, first on political stances (German disarmament, creation of the Luftwaffe, German conscription), then on more direct military matters like the expansion of the German navy.

Then Chamberlain sough appeasement after the annexation of Austria, and after the annexation of the Sudetenland, and after the annexation of the remainder of Czechoslovakia.

Finally they drew a line at Poland, and Hitler ignored that as much as he'd ignored the appeasement and we ended with a war. Appeasing Hitler repeatedly failed to stop German expansion, and there's no reason to think that appeasing Putin will be any different, given his explicit idea that the former Soviet nations should be returned to some sort of Russian influence or control.

O.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1827 on: June 06, 2024, 09:07:57 AM »
I'm basically taking my information from Scott Horton who is anti war, and looking it up as I go along. He says that yes Hitler was mad for power, but that his request was reasonable so wouldn't it have been better to appease him just on that request for Danzig and Poland leaving the treaty with France?

Do you think he would have stopped there?
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1828 on: June 06, 2024, 10:54:33 AM »
A report on the effect of sanctions on the Russian economy - not good short term signs for Ukraine. An effective long-term strategy, perhaps, but it's debatable whether they have that long.

BBC News

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1829 on: June 06, 2024, 10:58:32 AM »
A report on the effect of sanctions on the Russian economy - not good short term signs for Ukraine. An effective long-term strategy, perhaps, but it's debatable whether they have that long.

BBC News

O.
Not sure it's effective in the long term either.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1830 on: June 10, 2024, 05:27:53 PM »
Letting Johnny join your club isn't a threat to Billy. Billy feeling attacked because he wanted Johnny in his club is what, in technical terms, is called tough shit.
This argument seems to be refuted by the fact that in 1991, Western leaders promised the Soviets that NATO would not expand Eastwards after the reunification and inclusion into NATO of Germany. It was acknowledged by the West that the Soviets had security concerns.

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1831 on: June 10, 2024, 05:31:17 PM »
This argument seems to be refuted by the fact that in 1991, Western leaders promised the Soviets that NATO would not expand Eastwards after the reunification and inclusion into NATO of Germany. It was acknowledged by the West that the Soviets had security concerns.

That has been denied hasn't it?

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1832 on: June 10, 2024, 07:16:04 PM »
That has been denied hasn't it?
I haven't read all of the following article, but it says they did make that promise. For example, it quotes John Major as telling Gorbachev, "we are not talking about the strengthening of NATO".
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1833 on: June 10, 2024, 07:49:25 PM »
I haven't read all of the following article, but it says they did make that promise. For example, it quotes John Major as telling Gorbachev, "we are not talking about the strengthening of NATO".
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Gorbachev himself refuted that any such agreement had been made. If it was so important to the Russians, they would have made such an agreement formal. It just seems like a whole lot of butthurt from the Russians. Eternal victims!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2024, 08:11:23 PM by ad_orientem »
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1834 on: June 10, 2024, 10:37:11 PM »
This argument seems to be refuted by the fact that in 1991, Western leaders promised the Soviets that NATO would not expand Eastwards after the reunification and inclusion into NATO of Germany.

No, it wasn't promised at all. It was considered, and rejected.

Quote
It was acknowledged by the West that the Soviets had security concerns.

And that they were as unfounded then as they are now. Soviet/Russian security isn't threatened, Russian regional ambitions are threatened. That's not a security threat for Russia, that's a security threat for European nations, particularly those closest to Russia. Like Ukraine. And Moldova. And Georgia.

O.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1835 on: June 11, 2024, 05:19:30 PM »
Farage joins the pro-Putin brigade (or at least does not strive officiously to condemn):

https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/05/21/nigel-farage-defends-putin-from-royal-hitler-attack/
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1836 on: June 11, 2024, 07:01:10 PM »
Farage joins the pro-Putin brigade (or at least does not strive officiously to condemn):

https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/05/21/nigel-farage-defends-putin-from-royal-hitler-attack/

He's a chain smoker, isn't he? With a bit of luck...Just saying!🤷‍♂️
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1837 on: June 11, 2024, 07:30:34 PM »
I hear serial genocide denier, Noam Chomsky, isn't doing too well either. Done nothing but blame everyone but Russia.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1838 on: June 12, 2024, 02:15:06 PM »
No, it wasn't promised at all. It was considered, and rejected.

And that they were as unfounded then as they are now. Soviet/Russian security isn't threatened, Russian regional ambitions are threatened. That's not a security threat for Russia, that's a security threat for European nations, particularly those closest to Russia. Like Ukraine. And Moldova. And Georgia.

O.
As the article above shows, multiple verbal assurances were given, in response to concerns voiced by Russia about NATO expansion. If those concerns were unfounded, why were the assurances given?

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1839 on: June 12, 2024, 02:18:31 PM »
Gorbachev himself refuted that any such agreement had been made. If it was so important to the Russians, they would have made such an agreement formal. It just seems like a whole lot of butthurt from the Russians. Eternal victims!
Butthurt meaning they would not accept any potential for military build-up, including nuclear weapons, near its borders?

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1840 on: June 12, 2024, 03:05:01 PM »
Do you think he would have stopped there?
I don't know. Listening to a few of his speeches translated into English, he seemed most concerned about not allowing Germany to become weak. The point is though, our current actions are based on the assumptions, firstly, that Hitler would have continued invading other countries if appeased, and secondly, that Putin would do the same. But Putin knows the line he can't cross, that is, invading a NATO country. Also, from listening to Putin's speeches: although they are long and rambling like Hitler's, he doesn't talk in such a murderous way, so another assumption, that Russians would commit genocide if their security demands had been agreed to, is not reasonable.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 03:10:41 PM by Spud »

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1841 on: June 12, 2024, 06:43:11 PM »
I don't know. Listening to a few of his speeches translated into English, he seemed most concerned about not allowing Germany to become weak. The point is though, our current actions are based on the assumptions, firstly, that Hitler would have continued invading other countries if appeased, and secondly, that Putin would do the same. But Putin knows the line he can't cross, that is, invading a NATO country. Also, from listening to Putin's speeches: although they are long and rambling like Hitler's, he doesn't talk in such a murderous way, so another assumption, that Russians would commit genocide if their security demands had been agreed to, is not reasonable.

You really do not have a fucking clue.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1842 on: June 12, 2024, 10:21:58 PM »
As the article above shows, multiple verbal assurances were given, in response to concerns voiced by Russia about NATO expansion. If those concerns were unfounded, why were the assurances given?

To get them to shut up and sign something - the agreements with the signatures are what nations are held to, and there's nothing about not allowing countries to join NATO as a protection against potential Russian militaristic expansion. Just like those 'concerns' that were voiced weren't actual concerns for security, but perceived threats to Russia's local influence and desire to rebuild the Soviet era empire once more.

The point is though, our current actions are based on the assumptions, firstly, that Hitler would have continued invading other countries if appeased,

No, they're based on the demonstrable history that Hitler made agreements with various nations trying an appeasement approach, and he repeatedly then broke those agreements and expanded again. It's not what if he had, it's that he did.

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and secondly, that Putin would do the same.

Are the previous seven, eight, nine military interventions in foreign nations that Putin has authorised not a sufficient indication of his intent? How many chances do we need to give him? Even if this was going to be his last one, what of the Ukrainians who, and I can't believe that I need to be reiterating this, don't want to be Russians, and so voted accordingly?

Quote
But Putin knows the line he can't cross, that is, invading a NATO country.

For now, at least. Which is why he reacts when nations look to NATO, because it takes those nations outside of his reach.

Quote
Also, from listening to Putin's speeches: although they are long and rambling like Hitler's, he doesn't talk in such a murderous way, so another assumption, that Russians would commit genocide if their security demands had been agreed to, is not reasonable.

Their 'security demands' are both not about security, and not reasonable. Russians are already committing atrocities, and have a history of doing so in their other too numerous invasions of foreign states in the last two and a half decades.

O.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1843 on: June 13, 2024, 05:45:34 AM »
How do we deter Russian aggression? Many thousands of words have been written on this subject over the years but here it all is condensed into a 15 second video clip.

https://youtube.com/shorts/mtU_YD9FjiQ?si=SQuApVQkiQPQN8E5
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1844 on: June 13, 2024, 11:40:39 AM »
To get them to shut up and sign something
In which case they lied, so how do you expect Russia to respond? But actually they weren't lying, they were quite serious. It seems that generation of leaders understood the potential problems expansion could cause.

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1845 on: June 13, 2024, 12:11:00 PM »
In which case they lied, so how do you expect Russia to respond?

No, they were playing the same game the Russians were. Lots of nonsense is said and pitched to the domestic media and the international media, and then what counts actually goes on paper. Comments in negotiation like that are always somewhere between a perspective on the truth and absolute nonsense.

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But actually they weren't lying, they were quite serious.

No, they were lying. They were saying that they might have to resort to violence because they felt that Russia was under threat, and that's absolute bullshit. They were actually threatened by the fact that the nations they view as their buffer-states and satellite-states don't want to have anything to do with them. They don't fear invasion, they fear irrelevance.

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It seems that generation of leaders understood the potential problems expansion could cause.

No. They, like we, understand the problems Russian territorial ambitions have caused, were causing then, and are still causing now.

O.
[/quote]
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1846 on: June 14, 2024, 10:17:28 AM »
Former US nuclear weapons inspector on the possible consequences of allowing Ukraine to strike targets in Russia:
https://youtu.be/JcXDaLktm6s?si=STu-yzQv9-iQ2DR0
Note: the title is misleading.

No, they were lying. They were saying that they might have to
I meant that the Western leaders weren't lying, they were serious.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 10:21:15 AM by Spud »

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1847 on: June 14, 2024, 01:11:47 PM »
Oh God! Not Scott "the nonce" Ritter again? Twice convicted paedophile. Further proof of the correlation between Russia supporter and sex offender. Why would anyone take him as a credible source of information? There's not one take he's got right.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 07:24:07 PM by ad_orientem »
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1848 on: June 14, 2024, 01:44:14 PM »
Former US nuclear weapons inspector on the possible consequences of allowing Ukraine to strike targets in Russia:
https://youtu.be/JcXDaLktm6s?si=STu-yzQv9-iQ2DR0
Note: the title is misleading.

Scott 'Convicted Paedophile' Ritter, who has had his passport removed for his ongoing attempts to propogate Russian propoganda, appears not to understand that, unlike the US, Europe has a viable rail network to supplement its viable road network.

He seems to think that only US troops are relevant, like there aren't tens of thousands of troops already in Europe - they're European. This tool is wondering about how customs and passports will work... What if the Russians 'take out Antwerp'... good grief. This is your source material? You're even more deluded than I thought.

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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1849 on: June 17, 2024, 07:03:26 PM »
No, they were playing the same game the Russians were. Lots of nonsense is said and pitched to the domestic media and the international media, and then what counts actually goes on paper. Comments in negotiation like that are always somewhere between a perspective on the truth and absolute nonsense.
Aren't you thinking of general election campaigns? What happens when governments don't do what they pledged in their manifestos is that they get voted out next time round. Likewise, since NATO did what it assured the Soviets it wouldn't do, the Soviets, or as it now is, Russia, has gone back on its agreement to keep its troops out of Europe (380,000 withdrew from East Germany).
Hence the Russian army crossing into Donbas in 2022. Then Ukraine decided to attack them.