Arming the Ukrainians

[Aruntraveller]

Might that be what Bush and Blair said when they went looking for Iraqi WMD? (since Iraq used them in the 80s)

What Bush and Blair said was a lie. So they learnt nothing from the past, rather like you.

[ad_orientem]

But that was after Ukraine rejected the peace agreement. Yes both sides are contravening the Geneva convention, and the individuals responsible should face justice. But the point in question is that if someone else does something that doesn't mean it's acceptable for me to do it.

Wtf are you going on about, Spud? No, both sides are not contravening the Geneva Conventions! Only one side is, and systematically at that: russia.

[jeremyp]

It's called kidnapping and if it leads to death

You know that the Russians are the worst offenders at this, right?

murder.Would they have been murdered if they had agreed to peace terms?

Knowing the current regime in Russia, there would have been much murder. For a start they would have found an excuse to carve out more and more Ukrainian territory. Then they would have gone on to other nearby non NATO states.

You should be aware that you are an apologist for a brutal murderous lying regime.

[ekim]

You should be aware that you are an apologist for a brutal murderous lying regime.

Perhaps he should change his name to 'kartoshka'  ... the Russian for 'spud' 

[Spud]

Wtf are you going on about, Spud? No, both sides are not contravening the Geneva Conventions! Only one side is, and systematically at that: russia.

You originally said that the Russians would have tortured and murdered Ukrainians if Kiev had agreed to Russia's peace terms. Then you cited as evidence tortures and murders that took place after they refused the peace terms.
 
And, Ukraine is kidnapping men around the country and beating them up. So you can't claim that it's just the Russians who are committing war crimes.

[ad_orientem]

You originally said that the Russians would have tortured and murdered Ukrainians if Kiev had agreed to Russia's peace terms. Then you cited as evidence tortures and murders that took place after they refused the peace terms.

Yes, because there's a clear pattern. It also happened in the pre-2022 occupied territories. Get your head out of the sand and stop victim blaming. This is all russia's fault. It did not have to invade and it can still go home.
 

And, Ukraine is kidnapping men around the country and beating them up. So you can't claim that it's just the Russians who are committing war crimes.

They are not the same thing. Conscripting citizens of occupied territories is a war crime. Conscripting your own citizens isn't.

[jeremyp]

You originally said that the Russians would have tortured and murdered Ukrainians if Kiev had agreed to Russia's peace terms. Then you cited as evidence tortures and murders that took place after they refused the peace terms.

"Agree to our terms or we will torture and murder your people" - Vladimir Putin probably.

Will you listen to yourself.
 

And, Ukraine is kidnapping men around the country and beating them up. So you can't claim that it's just the Russians who are committing war crimes.

No it isn't.

[Spud]

"Agree to our terms or we will torture and murder your people" - Vladimir Putin probably.

Will you listen to yourself.
 No it isn't.

If Russia takes territory, they are violent towards 'Banderites'. (And if Ukraine recapture territory, they are violent towards people who didn't resist, or collaborated with, the Russians.)
But fighting back has a worse outcome; it has already led to death on a much greater scale and no territory recaptured (in last year's counteroffensive, that is)

[Spud]

No it isn't.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/ukrainian-officers-kidnap-14-y-o-amid-forced-conscription-dr#:~:text=Amid%20a%20dire%20need%20for,their%20enlistment%20with%20the%20military.&text=Ukrainian%20conscription%20officers%20kidnapped%20a,enlist%20him%20with%20the%20military.

[ad_orientem]

I'm biting my tongue here! You really don't know what I think of you, Spud.

[ad_orientem]

An excellent article well worth reading.

Should Ukraine join Nato? Open letter: We don't agree that Nato membership for Ukraine would provoke a conflict with Russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/27/ukraine-nato-membership

[jeremyp]

If Russia takes territory, they are violent towards 'Banderites'. (And if Ukraine recapture territory, they are violent towards people who didn't resist, or collaborated with, the Russians.)

This is a lie.

But fighting back has a worse outcome; it has already led to death on a much greater scale and no territory recaptured (in last year's counteroffensive, that is)

A worse outcome than what?

[jeremyp]

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/ukrainian-officers-kidnap-14-y-o-amid-forced-conscription-dr#:~:text=Amid%20a%20dire%20need%20for,their%20enlistment%20with%20the%20military.&text=Ukrainian%20conscription%20officers%20kidnapped%20a,enlist%20him%20with%20the%20military.

Let's have some confirmation from a reputable source.

[Spud]

Let's have some confirmation from a reputable source.

I have seen perhaps a dozen instances of men being kidnapped in Ukraine, caught on camera by onlookers. These are all buried in a forest of twice-daily videos by the same YouTuber, and I can't find them - sorry. That was why I posted the link to the 14-year old instead.

[ad_orientem]

Russia should cede territory around Kursk in exchange for peace. LOL! Russia has been bombing Kursk for eight years.

[ad_orientem]

A convoy of wagner terrorists got wasted on their way from Belarus to Kursk yesterday.
https://x.com/SvengerdHoek/status/1821801417490702804?s=19

[ad_orientem]

🤣

https://x.com/exileoftza/status/1821789148321058887?s=19

[jeremyp]

🤣

https://x.com/exileoftza/status/1821789148321058887?s=19

A convoy of wagner terrorists got wasted on their way from Belarus to Kursk yesterday.
https://x.com/SvengerdHoek/status/1821801417490702804?s=19

Neither of those links work for me.

[ad_orientem]

Neither of those links work for me.

Try these:

https://x.com/SvengerdHoek/status/1821801417490702804

https://x.com/exileoftza/status/1821789148321058887

[jeremyp]

Try these:

https://x.com/SvengerdHoek/status/1821801417490702804

https://x.com/exileoftza/status/1821789148321058887

Yes. I think it was the time stamp that confused it.

[Spud]

Yes, because there's a clear pattern. It also happened in the pre-2022 occupied territories. Get your head out of the sand and stop victim blaming. This is all russia's fault. It did not have to invade and it can still go home.

Okay so supposing this did happen to Ukrainians in the occupied territories, pre-2022.
Do you think that that, plus any that might have happened had a peace agreement been made, is greater than the slaughter that has occurred since war started in 22?
 

They are not the same thing. Conscripting citizens of occupied territories is a war crime. Conscripting your own citizens isn't.

Agreed, however, kidnapping people and and compelling them to fight is still morally wrong.

[jeremyp]

Okay so supposing this did happen to Ukrainians in the occupied territories, pre-2022.
Do you think that that, plus any that might have happened had a peace agreement been made, is greater than the slaughter that has occurred since war started in 22?

The war was started by Russia. Ukraine didn't want it.

Agreed, however, kidnapping people and and compelling them to fight is still morally wrong.

Tell that to Putin. He's the one doing all the kidnapping.

[Nearly Sane]

Hungary being all Orban


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg2jxjd7r7o

[ad_orientem]

With 1250 square kilometers of the Kursk region under control, Ukraine's Defence Forces still have not found a single red line. The search operation continues.

[Spud]

The war was started by Russia. Ukraine didn't want it.
Tell that to Putin. He's the one doing all the kidnapping.

But compare Russia with the Taliban, who attacked the Afghans in 2020. Afghans didn't want the war, and most of them decided not to fight, to avoid bloodshed. If there was a threat of genocide, had Ukraine agreed to peace terms, then it would have made sense to fight. But as it is, there was no threat of genocide, and the Ukrainian rulers have forced the people to fight, which is itself akin to genocide.