Arming the Ukrainians

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Piss off!

[jeremyp]

But compare Russia with the Taliban, who attacked the Afghans in 2020. Afghans didn't want the war, and most of them decided not to fight, to avoid bloodshed.

You think Afghanistan is some sort of paradise on Earth now, do you? I hope you don't have any female relatives there.

If there was a threat of genocide, had Ukraine agreed to peace terms, then it would have made sense to fight. But as it is, there was no threat of genocide, and the Ukrainian rulers have forced the people to fight, which is itself akin to genocide.

Please stop being so stupid.

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If drone footage is anything to go by, there's a considerable increase in the number of russian soldiers topping themselves. I just don't understand why they had to go all the way to Ukraine to do it.

[Spud]

You think Afghanistan is some sort of paradise on Earth now, do you? I hope you don't have any female relatives there.
Please stop being so stupid.

If there is a universal right to flee persecution and war why is the Ukrainian government preventing its male citizens leaving the country? You are right about other things, so I'm sure you can explain this.

[jeremyp]

If there is a universal right to flee persecution and war why is the Ukrainian government preventing its male citizens leaving the country? You are right about other things, so I'm sure you can explain this.

Are you not aware that Ukraine is fighting an existential war?  This is unlike Russia where the persecution of people who don’t want to fight is much worse.

[Outrider]

If there is a universal right to flee persecution and war why is the Ukrainian government preventing its male citizens leaving the country? You are right about other things, so I'm sure you can explain this.

Under the duress of a foreign invasion, they have decided to prioritise the collective response as opposed to the 'every man for himself' of individual rights. Still not addressing Putin's obligation not to go randomly invading foreign nations, I see.

Ukraine's been put in a difficult position, and they are having to make hard decisions, but it's not a situation of their making. Russians have the right to flee war as well, of course - what's the life prospects for a conscript on the front line who elects to abandon their post?

O.

[Spud]

Are you not aware that Ukraine is fighting an existential war?  This is unlike Russia where the persecution of people who don’t want to fight is much worse.

Assuming you mean its existence as an independent nation, yes I realise that. My point is that if doing that is going to result in them being wiped out, it would be better to accept loss of independence.

Yes, I'm aware that Russia has mandatory conscription. But they also have more manpower, so are more likely to win a war of attrition. Whether Ukraine uses forced conscription or not, they can't win.

Therefore the only thing that would justify continuing to fight is if on surrendering they would be killed, and you haven't shown that to be the case.

[Aruntraveller]

Assuming you mean its existence as an independent nation, yes I realise that. My point is that if doing that is going to result in them being wiped out, it would be better to accept loss of independence.

Yes, I'm aware that Russia has mandatory conscription. But they also have more manpower, so are more likely to win a war of attrition. Whether Ukraine uses forced conscription or not, they can't win.

Therefore the only thing that would justify continuing to fight is if on surrendering they would be killed, and you haven't shown that to be the case.

So you subscribe to the notion of "might not right" then?

[ekim]

So you subscribe to the notion of "might not right" then?

... and his advice to women might  seem to be - rape is OK provided you don't fight against it?

[jeremyp]

Assuming you mean its existence as an independent nation, yes I realise that. My point is that if doing that is going to result in them being wiped out, it would be better to accept loss of independence.

No, I mean they are in an existential crisis. Their way of life will cease to exist and so might they.

Yes, I'm aware that Russia has mandatory conscription. But they also have more manpower, so are more likely to win a war of attrition. Whether Ukraine uses forced conscription or not, they can't win.

Therefore the only thing that would justify continuing to fight is if on surrendering they would be killed, and you haven't shown that to be the case.

No Russia is not likely to win a war of attrition. They are losing several times the number of people in the fighting and they don’t have the support of rich Western countries. Both sides are in the midst of a demographic crisis that stems from the Second Workd War but Ukraine is better placed to recover from it.

Don’t forget that Russia could end the war tomorrow by simply withdrawing. Why are you not urging them to do so?

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The CEO of Telegram has been arrested in France. The russian military is shitting themselves, as it's one of their main methods of communication.

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Ukraine has developed a new jet powered long range attack drone.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/37934

[Nearly Sane]

Ukraine has developed a new jet powered long range attack drone.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/37934

Have they developed it or have the specifications been given to them to avoid the restrictions on what is being supplied?

[ad_orientem]

Have they developed it or have the specifications been given to them to avoid the restrictions on what is being supplied?

I have no idea.

[Outrider]

Assuming you mean its existence as an independent nation, yes I realise that. My point is that if doing that is going to result in them being wiped out, it would be better to accept loss of independence.

Do you realise that the state of the war shows that there is a reasonable chance, though, that they will not be wiped out? So it makes sense.

Yes, I'm aware that Russia has mandatory conscription. But they also have more manpower, so are more likely to win a war of attrition.

Only if they can be effective enough that they are killing the opposition at a faster rate than their own politics will accept them losing their own people, and if they can keep their economy afloat in the meantime. It's a war of attrition, but it's a asymmetric one, and manpower isn't the only critical resource.

Whether Ukraine uses forced conscription or not, they can't win.

Why? They are holding their ground, they are imposing far more significant casualties on the Russians than they are suffering, their technical capacity to prosecute the war is increasing, they have taken the strategic advantage by spreading the Russian front line even thinner, they have changed the Russian domestic narrative by occupying actually Russian territory, and their foreign support is stronger and more widespread than Russia's (for now, there are potential fractures in that support).

Therefore the only thing that would justify continuing to fight is if on surrendering they would be killed, and you haven't shown that to be the case.

Even if everything you said was true, and it's not, your conclusion still isn't valid. Evil will only flourish when good men stand by and do nothing, after all. In terms that you might appreciate more than I do they are choosing:

“Defend the lowly and fatherless; render justice to the afflicted and needy. Rescue the lowly and poor; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” (Psalm 82:3-4)

"Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, and please the widow's cause" (Isaiah 1:17)

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy." (Proverbs 31:8-9)

O.

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Russia using chemical warfare in Donbas.

https://kyivindependent.com/silent-killer-russia-boosts-grinding-donbas-advance-with-chemical-warfare/

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Mongolia proves international law is dead and Biden allows russia to bomb Ukrainian hospitals. Fuck them all! Someone have the balls to glass russia already.

https://www.asiafinancial.com/mongolia-ignores-icc-warrant-welcomes-vladimir-putin

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/09/03/three-killed-by-russian-strikes-across-ukraine

[jeremyp]

Biden allows russia to bomb Ukrainian hospitals. Fuck them all! Someone have the balls to glass russia already.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/09/03/three-killed-by-russian-strikes-across-ukraine

What are you proposing that Biden does about this that he is not doing already?

[ad_orientem]

What are you proposing that Biden does about this that he is not doing already?

Allow Ukraine to use the weapons they've been given to destroy the airfields and launch sites inside of russia that are used to attack Ukraine and murder its innocent civilians.

[jeremyp]

Allow Ukraine to use the weapons they've been given to destroy the airfields and launch sites inside of russia that are used to attack Ukraine and murder its innocent civilians.

Militarily, that is a waste of time. Whilst it is a tragedy that Russia is killing civilians in Ukraine, that is of little consequence as far as the war effort is concerned. It could be argued that Russia should be targeting the Ukrainian defence forces if they want to advance their invasion.

Also, you may not be aware but Ukraine is using Western hardware inside Russia. If you remember they have invaded the Kursk oblast with it. This is far more effective than targeting airfields.

[ad_orientem]

Militarily, that is a waste of time. Whilst it is a tragedy that Russia is killing civilians in Ukraine, that is of little consequence as far as the war effort is concerned. It could be argued that Russia should be targeting the Ukrainian defence forces if they want to advance their invasion.

Also, you may not be aware but Ukraine is using Western hardware inside Russia. If you remember they have invaded the Kursk oblast with it. This is far more effective than targeting airfields.

Tell that to the families of the 41 killed and 180 injured today. They're doing this every single fucking day, including targeting civilian infrastructure. That could all stop in a matter of days. We're letting russia commit genocide.

[jeremyp]

Tell that to the families of the 41 killed and 180 injured today.

One reason why war is considered very bad is because things like this happen all the time during it. It's an absolute tragedy, but Ukraine losing would be a far worse tragedy.

They're doing this every single fucking day, including targeting civilian infrastructure. That could all stop in a matter of days. We're letting russia commit genocide.

We are doing pretty much everything we can short of putting our own troops on the ground. We aren't letting Russia commit genocide.

[ad_orientem]

One reason why war is considered very bad is because things like this happen all the time during it. It's an absolute tragedy, but Ukraine losing would be a far worse tragedy.

We are doing pretty much everything we can short of putting our own troops on the ground. We aren't letting Russia commit genocide.

I already gave one example of what we could do more. Lift those stupid immoral restrictions. We're protecting russian air fields better than Ukraine.

[Spud]

I already gave one example of what we could do more. Lift those stupid immoral restrictions. We're protecting russian air fields better than Ukraine.

I heard that the reason NATO will not consent to allowing Ukraine to attack Russian airfields (etc) is because the equipment used in doing so will have to be operated, or coordinated, by NATO personel. That is NATO attacking Russia, and will lead to Russia attacking NATO airfields (etc) in response.

[Outrider]

I heard that the reason NATO will not consent to allowing Ukraine to attack Russian airfields (etc) is because the equipment used in doing so will have to be operated, or coordinated, by NATO personel. That is NATO attacking Russia, and will lead to Russia attacking NATO airfields (etc) in response.

Changing that particular restriction would not be difficult - whilst some officials might be using it as part of the justification, the reality is that politically it's not seen as an appropriate move to escalate the situation in that way, at this time. I disagree, but I haven't been elected to make those decisions.

However, the idea that NATO forces attacking Russian military capacity would result in the Russian military suddenly developing capability they've not shown in the past two years of conflict in Ukraine is laughable. NATO troops in NATO countries would be in no real danger at all - the danger is to civilian targets near the border, and to NATO troops on any front lines in Russia, and that's a political risk that the Western leaders don't appear to be willing to take right now.

O.