Arming the Ukrainians

[jeremyp]

Wasn't it the USA withdrawing from the Anti Ballistic Missile treaty that made Russia develop these weapons,

Possibly

and wasn't it the US's use of nuclear weapons that made Russia and China develop them?

No. Russia The USSR had its own nuclear programme as well as spies inside the Los Alamos project.

And, by the way, at that time, the USSR's fears might have been justified. It was many years before they had more than a handful of atom bombs or any effective delivery system. Some of the more agressive Americans were arguing that the USSR should be obliterated before they caught up.

Today, nobody is threatening Russia. There's nobody seriously suggesting we should obliterate them (at least there wasn't before they invaded Ukraine). The so called security fears are just straw men invented by Russia's leaders to try to lend some legitimacy to their attrocities. Stop shilling for them.

[Spud]

Possibly

No. Russia The USSR had its own nuclear programme as well as spies inside the Los Alamos project.

And, by the way, at that time, the USSR's fears might have been justified. It was many years before they had more than a handful of atom bombs or any effective delivery system. Some of the more agressive Americans were arguing that the USSR should be obliterated before they caught up.

Today, nobody is threatening Russia. There's nobody seriously suggesting we should obliterate them (at least there wasn't before they invaded Ukraine). The so called security fears are just straw men invented by Russia's leaders to try to lend some legitimacy to their attrocities. Stop shilling for them.

Putin told Oliver Stone that from the USSR's perspective it was necessary to have nuclear technology to prevent the US from using theirs to intimidate other countries. 

[Maeght]

Putin told Oliver Stone that from the USSR's perspective it was necessary to have nuclear technology to prevent the US from using theirs to intimidate other countries.

Well he would, wouldn't he.

[jeremyp]

Putin told Oliver Stone that from the USSR's perspective it was necessary to have nuclear technology to prevent the US from using theirs to intimidate other countries.

So what? Ukraine was no threat to Russia and NATO is only a threat to Russia in that they won't let Russia invade any of their members.

[Outrider]

Putin told Oliver Stone that from the USSR's perspective it was necessary to have nuclear technology to prevent the US from using theirs to intimidate other countries.

Have you any basis for presuming anything that Putin says is credible? Anything at all?

Even if that were the case, how does that justify lying about Ukraine (which is a non-nuclear power, having given up its nuclear arsenal to.... Russia!), destabilising Ukraine by sending plain-clothes soldiers in and supplying equipment to rebel forces, and then invading. Twice.

O.

[Spud]

Well he would, wouldn't he.

The point he was making was that once the genie (nuclear bomb technology) was out of the bottle it couldn't be put back in, but it can be controlled, by having a balance of power instead of one country having the ability to annihilate others unhindered.

[ad_orientem]

The point he was making was that once the genie (nuclear bomb technology) was out of the bottle it couldn't be put back in, but it can be controlled, by having a balance of power instead of one country having the ability to annihilate others unhindered.

Bollocks! That way of thinking is completely detached from any kind of morality and sovereignty. It's just justification for imperialism, whether that be US, russia or any other kind. If you're against one form of it, you're against all forms of it. There is no finite amount of security in the world, whereby the only way to make yourself feel more secure is by making others less secure.

[Spud]

Bollocks! That way of thinking is completely detached from any kind of morality and sovereignty. It's just justification for imperialism, whether that be US, russia or any other kind. If you're against one form of it, you're against all forms of it. There is no finite amount of security in the world, whereby the only way to make yourself feel more secure is by making others less secure.

I'm not sure you understand. If the US develops and uses a nuclear bomb, they make the Soviet Union feel less secure. The USSR answers by developing the same technology so the US can't threaten them. Then the two sides can negotiate on limiting the numbers of warheads to lower the potential for destroying the whole of civilization.

[ad_orientem]

I'm not sure you understand. If the US develops and uses a nuclear bomb, they make the Soviet Union feel less secure. The USSR answers by developing the same technology so the US can't threaten them. Then the two sides can negotiate on limiting the numbers of warheads to lower the potential for destroying the whole of civilization.

That's history, unless of course,  you're trying to claim that russia has been historically wronged (the same bullshit argument Putin uses) and which is why he's invading Ukraine. In which case, my point stands.

[Maeght]

The point he was making was that once the genie (nuclear bomb technology) was out of the bottle it couldn't be put back in, but it can be controlled, by having a balance of power instead of one country having the ability to annihilate others unhindered.

MAD, yes. But was Russia (USSR) trying to develop it first (they were researching it before the US developed the bomb) for that reason or to try to be the first and to be able to do stuff before the US could develop theirs? Of course Putin suggests the USSR development was in order to balance the US development but if they had developed it first then the US could say the same. Putin presents Russia as having to defend themselves against the west and that Russia isn't a threat to anyone else - which is what I meant by saying he would, wouldn't he.

[Spud]

MAD, yes. But was Russia (USSR) trying to develop it first (they were researching it before the US developed the bomb) for that reason or to try to be the first and to be able to do stuff before the US could develop theirs? Of course Putin suggests the USSR development was in order to balance the US development but if they had developed it first then the US could say the same. Putin presents Russia as having to defend themselves against the west and that Russia isn't a threat to anyone else - which is what I meant by saying he would, wouldn't he.

After nuclear fusion was discovered in Germany in 1938, the USSR became interested in it to use in the war against Germany. When Truman told Stalin the US had tested an atomic bomb, Stalin told his scientists to hurry up their own research.
Her is the bit in the interview which I was referring to. It's from 6:00-7:00 minutes here. He is saying that an international team of nuclear scientists transferred information from the US to the USSR in order to create a nuclear balance because they understood the dangers of just one country having the bomb.

[Maeght]

After nuclear fusion was discovered in Germany in 1938, the USSR became interested in it to use in the war against Germany. When Truman told Stalin the US had tested an atomic bomb, Stalin told his scientists to hurry up their own research.
Her is the bit in the interview which I was referring to. It's from 6:00-7:00 minutes here. He is saying that an international team of nuclear scientists transferred information from the US to the USSR in order to create a nuclear balance because they understood the dangers of just one country having the bomb.

Yes, I know all that thanks. The point I am making is that you (and Putin) seem to be presenting Russia's/USSR's development of the atom bomb as purely a counter to the US development whereas they were looking to develop it anyway, as you acknowledge. If the USSR had developed it first they would have had the ability to annihilate others unhindered and it would have been important for the US to catch-up.

[Spud]

Yes, I know all that thanks. The point I am making is that you (and Putin) seem to be presenting Russia's/USSR's development of the atom bomb as purely a counter to the US development whereas they were looking to develop it anyway, as you acknowledge. If the USSR had developed it first they would have had the ability to annihilate others unhindered and it would have been important for the US to catch-up.

They were not working on it urgently until the US began testing and using it. Wiki says that at the time, they were actually more focussed on radar. Perhaps it was the way it was used - on civilians - that was significant? Applying this to the present time, it's notable that Russia hasn't used its oreshnik missiles to attack civilians, yet has demonstrated that it can counter NATO's attacks against targets inside Russia.

[ad_orientem]

They were not working on it urgently until the US began testing and using it. Wiki says that at the time, they were actually more focussed on radar. Perhaps it was the way it was used - on civilians - that was significant? Applying this to the present time, it's notable that Russia hasn't used its oreshnik missiles to attack civilians, yet has demonstrated that it can counter NATO's attacks against targets inside Russia.

Is that why russian oil refineries are burning? Btw, oreshnik is just another ballistic missile. Nothing special but hyped up as the new wonder weapon, much like the T-14 Armata (which didn't even make its way out of a parade because it broke down).

[Spud]

Is that why russian oil refineries are burning? Btw, oreshnik is just another ballistic missile. Nothing special but hyped up as the new wonder weapon, much like the T-14 Armata (which didn't even make its way out of a parade because it broke down).

As far as I know, the reason is because Ukraine gets intelligence from NATO about when Russia is about to launch a large-scale missile strike, and it attacks Russian oil refineries just before so that Russia can't fuel its bombers.
Regarding oreshnik, I guess we may find out how successful they are.
Any thoughts about #2074? Assuming Russia doesn't respond to being burned to the ground by burning the West to the ground, how is Ukraine supposed to survive if Zelensky keeps sacrificing manpower and weapons unnecessarily?

[Outrider]

Applying this to the present time, it's notable that Russia hasn't used its oreshnik missiles to attack civilians

Because they have better defended targets that they're also aiming at that require those - they're using cheaper missiles to indiscriminately target civilians in contravention of the rules of war, to compound their illegal invasion in contravention of international law. So they're consistent, at least.

yet has demonstrated that it can counter NATO's attacks against targets inside Russia.

NATO isn't targetting anyone. NATO isn't involved in this war that Russia appears to be losing to NATO, which just highlights the spectacular incompetence of the Russian military and leadership.

O.

[ad_orientem]

Any thoughts about #2074? Assuming Russia doesn't respond to being burned to the ground by burning the West to the ground, how is Ukraine supposed to survive if Zelensky keeps sacrificing manpower and weapons unnecessarily?

LOL! The only ones sacrificing manpower and weapons unnecessarily is russia. They could have all just stayed at home. Ukraine never had that choice.

[Maeght]

They were not working on it urgently until the US began testing and using it. Wiki says that at the time, they were actually more focussed on radar. Perhaps it was the way it was used - on civilians - that was significant? Applying this to the present time, it's notable that Russia hasn't used its oreshnik missiles to attack civilians, yet has demonstrated that it can counter NATO's attacks against targets inside Russia.

They are using glide bombs against civilians aren't they? No need to 'waste' the Oreshnk. Based on their record of levelling cities do you think the USSR wouldn't have used the atomic bomb if they had developed it first? You have already said they were looking to develop it to use against Germany.

[Spud]

LOL! The only ones sacrificing manpower and weapons unnecessarily is russia. They could have all just stayed at home. Ukraine never had that choice.

That they didn't have that choice doesn't mean they ought to sit and shoot at the Russians and wait until surrounded. Both sides are sacrificing them unnecessarily.

[Spud]

They are using glide bombs against civilians aren't they? No need to 'waste' the Oreshnk. Based on their record of levelling cities do you think the USSR wouldn't have used the atomic bomb if they had developed it first? You have already said they were looking to develop it to use against Germany.

I don't think they were aware of its power at the time they thought about using it against Germany. We can't assume they would have used it as the Americans did, primarily against civilians. Russia's record of leveling cities is due to the defenders using them as fortresses.

[ad_orientem]

Russia's record of leveling cities is due to the defenders using them as fortresses.

A truly disgusting human being.

[Spud]

A truly disgusting human being.

You're the disgusting human being, as we have seen from the obscenities you post. I was referring to the fact that Russia doesn't target buildings unless they are being used by the military for defense, in contrast to the Americans' use of nukes against civilians.

[ad_orientem]

You're the disgusting human being, as we have seen from the obscenities you post. I was referring to the fact that Russia doesn't target buildings unless they are being used by the military for defense, in contrast to the Americans' use of nukes against civilians.

Are you on drugs? Russia is bombing hospitals, apartment buildings, shopping malls etc every fucking day! You're also arguing that Ukrainians shouldn't defwnd their home. Fuck you!

[Spud]

Are you on drugs? Russia is bombing hospitals, apartment buildings, shopping malls etc every fucking day! You're also arguing that Ukrainians shouldn't defwnd their home. Fuck you!

We hear about that in the news from time to time. If it was every day, we would hear about it every day.

[ad_orientem]

We hear about that in the news from time to time. If it was every day, we would hear about it every day.

Yes, every fucking day.