Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 159727 times)

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2100 on: February 06, 2025, 06:56:29 PM »
We hear about that in the news from time to time. If it was every day, we would hear about it every day.

So you accept that they are bombing buildings such as shopping malls which aren't being used for defence?

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2101 on: February 07, 2025, 09:46:34 AM »
No, it's all in the submarines, which do dock in Scotland but not in bunkers.
Not sure if I already said this, but I thought the 200 warheads were stored in the banks of Loch Lomond, except a few dozen that are in the submarines? If the stored ones were taken out, we would have only the ones that were at sea left.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 10:07:10 AM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2102 on: February 07, 2025, 09:52:35 AM »
So you accept that they are bombing buildings such as shopping malls which aren't being used for defence?
I accept that they do from time to time, but it's possible that many of these incidents involve air defence or are for retaliation for Russian civilian targets being hit by Ukraine. Also, such buildings can be used for military purposes and targeted because of that. My point was that as a rule, Russia doesn't target civilians, only military. This is supported by the fact that when a hospital or shopping mall is hit, we hear about it on MSM; but those instances are rare, suggesting they are one-offs.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 10:06:22 AM by Spud »

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2103 on: February 07, 2025, 11:32:50 AM »
I accept that they do from time to time, but it's possible that many of these incidents involve air defence or are for retaliation for Russian civilian targets being hit by Ukraine. Also, such buildings can be used for military purposes and targeted because of that. My point was that as a rule, Russia doesn't target civilians, only military. This is supported by the fact that when a hospital or shopping mall is hit, we hear about it on MSM; but those instances are rare, suggesting they are one-offs.

So to you Russia is noble and would never target civilian buildings - unless it was in retaliation. What makes you think this?

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2104 on: February 07, 2025, 11:48:28 AM »
My point was that as a rule, Russia doesn't target civilians, only military. This is supported by the fact that when a hospital or shopping mall is hit, we hear about it on MSM; but those instances are rare, suggesting they are one-offs.

Reality appears to disagree with your assessment. - Russian War Crimes - Wikipedia

O.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2105 on: February 07, 2025, 12:00:46 PM »
Russia doesn't target buildings unless they are being used by the military for defense,
That is a blatant lie.
Quote
in contrast to the Americans' use of nukes against civilians.
The circumstances were very different. Japan was the aggressor in that war and the bombs were dropped to avoid having to make a full scale invasion of Japan. Many lives were saved - including civilians - by ending the war before that happened.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2106 on: February 07, 2025, 02:33:25 PM »
The circumstances were very different. Japan was the aggressor in that war and the bombs were dropped to avoid having to make a full scale invasion of Japan. Many lives were saved - including civilians - by ending the war before that happened.
They didn't need to invade Japan; the US Navy proposed blockading it and capturing its airfields in China and Korea.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2107 on: February 07, 2025, 02:36:53 PM »
So to you Russia is noble and would never target civilian buildings - unless it was in retaliation. What makes you think this?
I didn't say that. I said the low frequency of reports in MSM shows that it is rare.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2108 on: February 07, 2025, 02:45:20 PM »
Reality appears to disagree with your assessment. - Russian War Crimes - Wikipedia

O.
Russia didn't use cluster munitions in Ukraine until after Ukraine used them (supplied by the US). One example of how some crimes were initiated, and indeed Russia's crime of invading Crimea was in response to Western backed 2014 coup, and the 2022 invasion a response to the refusal of the US to rule out putting NATO bases on its doorstep.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 02:47:54 PM by Spud »

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2109 on: February 07, 2025, 03:04:27 PM »
Russia didn't use cluster munitions in Ukraine until after Ukraine used them (supplied by the US). One example of how some crimes were initiated, and indeed Russia's crime of invading Crimea was in response to Western backed 2014 coup, and the 2022 invasion a response to the refusal of the US to rule out putting NATO bases on its doorstep.

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2110 on: February 07, 2025, 04:44:52 PM »
Russia didn't use cluster munitions in Ukraine until after Ukraine used them (supplied by the US). One example of how some crimes were initiated, and indeed Russia's crime of invading Crimea was in response to Western backed 2014 coup, and the 2022 invasion a response to the refusal of the US to rule out putting NATO bases on its doorstep.
And of course, the Ukrainians destroyed their own city of Mariupol all by themselves.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2111 on: February 07, 2025, 04:53:34 PM »
And of course, the Ukrainians destroyed their own city of Mariupol all by themselves.

He'll just blame Ukrainians, mostly russian speaking, for defending it in a steelworks. " But russia had no choice but to flatten the city and kill up to a 100,000 russian speaking Ukrainians!"
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 04:56:35 PM by ad_orientem »
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2112 on: February 07, 2025, 06:55:24 PM »
I didn't say that. I said the low frequency of reports in MSM shows that it is rare.

So they do target civilian buildings?



Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2115 on: February 08, 2025, 03:15:14 PM »
Just bought "Killer in the Kremlin" by John Sweeney from a Wells market stall. Anyone read this?
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2116 on: February 08, 2025, 04:56:04 PM »
Just bought "Killer in the Kremlin" by John Sweeney from a Wells market stall. Anyone read this?

No. But I've been meaning to. You've brought to mind now. I'll have a look in my local library on Monday.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2117 on: February 08, 2025, 05:30:47 PM »
No. But I've been meaning to. You've brought to mind now. I'll have a look in my local library on Monday.

This edition has four extra chapters, leading  up to just after the more recent full invasion. Flicking through the last few pages, Sweeney seemed optimistic, even expecting Putin to be dead by 2023. If only..
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2118 on: February 08, 2025, 06:26:18 PM »
Ok

Is that it? Ok. Do you accept that Russia used cluster ammunition first?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2025, 06:55:00 PM by Maeght »

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2119 on: February 08, 2025, 06:43:59 PM »
This edition has four extra chapters, leading  up to just after the more recent full invasion. Flicking through the last few pages, Sweeney seemed optimistic, even expecting Putin to be dead by 2023. If only..

If you're interested in the subject, I can also recommend Keir Giles. He has a number of books about russia and why it acts as it does. Found them very insightful.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2120 on: February 08, 2025, 07:01:37 PM »
If you're interested in the subject, I can also recommend Keir Giles. He has a number of books about russia and why it acts as it does. Found them very insightful.
Will look out for them.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2121 on: February 09, 2025, 02:32:13 PM »
Is that it? Ok. Do you accept that Russia used cluster ammunition first?
That is what you are saying. I want to hear Russia's side of the story too. As it happens, Ukraine shelled a market place in Horlivka near the city of Donetsk 5 days ago with cluster rounds and killed five civilians. This type of attack over 10 years is what Russia says justifies its special military operation.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2025, 02:36:16 PM by Spud »

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2122 on: February 09, 2025, 02:45:37 PM »
That is what you are saying. I want to hear Russia's side of the story too. As it happens, Ukraine shelled a market place in Horlivka near the city of Donetsk 5 days ago with cluster rounds and killed five civilians. This type of attack over 10 years is what Russia says justifies its special military operation.

I'm not saying it, I am linking to a Wiki page which includes information about it. Fair enough to try to investigate the claims more but you do seem to just try to find things which show Russia in a good light. Regarding the incident in Horlivka, the only info I could find with a Google search came from Russian sources. In all wars there is propaganda and spin put on incidents. Do you recognise that? Do you recognise that claims of attacks over the past 10 years could be spin to justify the invasion? I'm not saying they are inaccurate - I don't know - but you seem to just accept the Russian claims regardless. Why?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2025, 02:50:39 PM by Maeght »

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2123 on: February 09, 2025, 04:52:22 PM »
That is what you are saying. I want to hear Russia's side of the story too. As it happens, Ukraine shelled a market place in Horlivka near the city of Donetsk 5 days ago with cluster rounds and killed five civilians. This type of attack over 10 years is what Russia says justifies its special military operation.

You're still no going with that "genocide in Dombas" guf, are you? It never happened!
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2124 on: February 11, 2025, 03:28:32 PM »
I'm not saying it, I am linking to a Wiki page which includes information about it. Fair enough to try to investigate the claims more but you do seem to just try to find things which show Russia in a good light. Regarding the incident in Horlivka, the only info I could find with a Google search came from Russian sources. In all wars there is propaganda and spin put on incidents. Do you recognise that? Do you recognise that claims of attacks over the past 10 years could be spin to justify the invasion? I'm not saying they are inaccurate - I don't know - but you seem to just accept the Russian claims regardless. Why?
I would like to say I am neutral - I totally accept that Russia has committed many war crimes. However, AFU attacks on civilians in Donbas started long before 2022, during the time before Russia got heavily involved. It began when the Eastern Ukrainians refused to accept the new government after the Maidan protests and riots: that government was not democratically elected. They wanted to remain part of Ukraine, but also wanted to maintain the military neutrality that Ukraine had had since its independence from the Soviet Union. So they declared independence, and formed militia to defend against the new regime. Russia sent them weapons to enable them to do this, while at the same time recognizing the Poroshenko government in Kiev.
The Minsk Agreements were supposed to result in the Donbas being an autonomous region of Ukraine. The Separatist militia only needed about 10,000 combat-ready troops for defensive purposes, because the Minsk agreements were meant to prevent offensives. For that reason they didn't mobilize more than that number.
There came a point in November 2021 when they suspected that Kiev was not intending to keep to the agreements, and were ultimately intending to retake Donbas. Kiev denied this, but we now know, from Merkel and Hollande, that France and Germany secretly intended the agreements to allow Kiev time to build up its military. I've seen a document online, outlining the reasons why Ukraine wanted to prepare for conflict with Russia. Their objective appears to have been to deter Russia from attacking. It could be that they were actually preparing to retake Donbas and Crimea, and anticipating a Russian response.
In November 2021 the separatists appealed to Russia to send 30,000 troops to help defend against a potential AFU offensive. They did this because they didn't have enough troops ready in case of such an offensive. Again, this is because, with the Minsk agreements in place, they only needed 10,000 troops to keep the front line stable.
At the same time, Russia was trying to get security guarantees from the West; the Biden administration refused these and as I recall, NATO carried out massive exercises near Russia's borders. This led to Russia massing over 100,000 troops near the Ukrainian border, whose purpose was to secure the autonomy of Donbas and to install a pro-Russian government in Kiev.
So the tipping point appears to have been the breakdown of the Minsk agreements, at which point the Separatists realized that resuming of the conflict was inevitable, and their appeal to Russia for help because they were not prepared for the coming AFU offensive. Notably, the Russians had told the Separatists that they would not occupy the territories. But the Separatists said that this would lead to the AFU coming back in again, and asked the Russians to keep troops there.

On the subject of cluster ammunition, I read that Ukraine had a lot of this left over from Soviet times, which it had started destroying. Last year it had almost run out of shells altogether: does that suggest that it had used up those old cluster rounds? And also, Russia being a more powerful country, of course it is going to use more of a type of weapon than Ukraine, whether artillery or whatever.

I hope that sounds at least a little bit unbiased?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2025, 03:34:55 PM by Spud »