Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 159825 times)

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2175 on: February 20, 2025, 12:22:58 PM »
Someone might think that, if the enemy only has enough weapons to kill of half of your country rather than all of it, that sacrificing that half might be worth the risk of launching. There's a lower point at which 'enough' becomes 'not enough' deterrent before you get to full disarmament.
Tricky indeed. Perhaps the advent of missiles which can't be intercepted will make a difference. These would not need to use nuclear warheads, so that nuclear weapons could all be dismantled and the risk to mankind eliminated. Maybe...

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2176 on: February 20, 2025, 01:36:27 PM »
Tricky indeed. Perhaps the advent of missiles which can't be intercepted will make a difference. These would not need to use nuclear warheads, so that nuclear weapons could all be dismantled and the risk to mankind eliminated. Maybe...

Don't misunderstand, I'm in favour of disarmament, but the 'slowly-slowly' approach hits a point where you're not reducing the overkill any more, you're directly reducing the level of destruction, which jeapordises the effectiveness of it as a deterrent. At that point, it's either agree to get rid of them all, or agree to hold at the minimum needed to eliminate the opposition entirely.

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Steve H

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2178 on: February 22, 2025, 11:15:33 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/22/from-saviour-to-judas-how-trumps-pivot-on-russia-also-endangers-his-own-country
Brilliant article, which rings so true. Ends with a few positive suggestions, but really - what does Europe, what do the remaining supposed democracies do now? I keep hearing the tones of Private Frazer.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2179 on: February 22, 2025, 11:32:42 PM »


In four years time, when Trump's been booted, perhaps someone with some sense will get into the White House, and Ukrainian acceptance into NATO will be viable again - or, earlier than that, if Trump decides he's had enough of NATO and convinces enough of Congress to withdraw from it.

O.
That is an admirably well-informed assessment, but you seem quite phlegmatic. Do you think things could really drag on for four years without some dramatic escalation? After Trump's recent brainless interventions, I can see Putin getting quite reckless.
In the article Steve has posted, there is the suggestion that the American constitution has provision to get rid of obviously delinquent presidents before term, if enough influential Americans come to their senses.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2180 on: February 23, 2025, 09:40:55 AM »
That is an admirably well-informed assessment, but you seem quite phlegmatic. Do you think things could really drag on for four years without some dramatic escalation?

It could - I can see things changing, but I don't see an escalation, as such, I see one side suddenly starting to lose badly. If the US withdraws and Europe doesn't/can't step up quickly enough, Putin steamrollers through and Ukraine is forced to salvage what it can. If the US withdraws but doesn't come through on bypassing sanctions on Russia, Russia's economy will eventually fail - it might be in the next four years, it might not. If it is, Putin learns about gravity the hard way, i guess, and things change that way.

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After Trump's recent brainless interventions, I can see Putin getting quite reckless.

If things go his way, he'll feel emboldened, certainly, but it remains to be seen if that will prove to be reckless, depending on the appetite for more direct intervention from Europe. If the European leadership sees that the loss of guarantees from the US means they need to more overtly demonstrate their power, Russia loses. If they think the threat of European intervention will be enough, Ukraine loses.

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In the article Steve has posted, there is the suggestion that the American constitution has provision to get rid of obviously delinquent presidents before term, if enough influential Americans come to their senses.

Which would be a problem if Trump were the cause of this American ideology, but he's as much a symptom. Trump goes, we get JD Vance who is cut from a cheaper version of the same cloth (if that's possible). The MAGA crowd has the Republican leadership, and that's not going to change in the next four years. Removing Trump now perhaps changes the picture for the next election cycle, but we're locked into this nonsense until then.

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SqueakyVoice

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2181 on: February 25, 2025, 12:13:46 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/feb/25/ukraine-russia-trump-putin-zelenskyy-macron-ceasefire-latest-news-updates-live
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Putin offers to sell rare earth minerals to the US, including from Russian-occupied Ukraine

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2182 on: February 25, 2025, 03:00:42 PM »
Does it help to say that Putin may always have exhibited signs of monumental pleonexia (that's a notch up from simple kleptomania)?
Sure he's some kind of psychopath, with no capacity for ordinary feelings of human empathy at all, but that almost seems to absolve him from his disgusting crimes. Pleonexia at least suggests that there is a rapacious will involved i.e. "You've got something very valuable that I want, and I'm going to have it, one way or another".
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Le Bon David

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2183 on: February 26, 2025, 12:43:58 AM »
'Ukraine official says minerals deal agreed with US' - will be interesting to see the details of this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c337461n3xlo

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2184 on: February 26, 2025, 05:22:21 PM »
'Ukraine official says minerals deal agreed with US' - will be interesting to see the details of this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c337461n3xlo
Interesting to see on the map in the link, that the occupied territory doesn't have much compared to the rest of the country. I had wondered if Russia was really only interested in the Donbas for its mineral deposits.

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2185 on: February 26, 2025, 07:00:09 PM »
Interesting to see on the map in the link, that the occupied territory doesn't have much compared to the rest of the country. I had wondered if Russia was really only interested in the Donbas for its mineral deposits.

What, the map that says 'Russia controlled area includes large mineral deposits'? Putin wanted all of Ukraine anyway.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2186 on: February 26, 2025, 07:44:01 PM »
What, the map that says 'Russia controlled area includes large mineral deposits'? Putin wanted all of Ukraine anyway.
Putin wants Ukrainian sovereignty, except the South-East which he now considers part of Russia, and on the condition of neutrality.

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2187 on: February 26, 2025, 07:51:39 PM »
Putin wants Ukrainian sovereignty, except the South-East which he now considers part of Russia, and on the condition of neutrality.

He wanted to take control of all of Ukraine.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2188 on: February 26, 2025, 07:52:14 PM »
Putin wants Ukrainian sovereignty, except the South-East which he now considers part of Russia, and on the condition of neutrality.

Putin is accepting Ukrainian sovereignty now, on the understanding that his immediate opportunity to annex the entire country is gone - he may or may not be planning to wait a while and try again, as he did last time, and he has his short-term goal which is a land corridor to the Black Sea port region of Crimea that he annexed on his first unjustified illegal invasion.

Putin doesn't WANT Ukrainian sovereignty, but he'll accept that it continues and pitch it like it's some sort of beneficent gesture on his part while his stooge backstabs Ukraine and America's allies - it's up to you what you think Trump gets out of it, but the claim that he brokered peace (who cares who suffers for that ego trip), avoiding Putin publishing sordid details, favourable mineral deals for the US that he can claim as his doing, some of all of the above...

O.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2189 on: February 26, 2025, 10:40:24 PM »
Putin wants Ukrainian sovereignty, except the South-East which he now considers part of Russia, and on the condition of neutrality.

Which is why he invaded?? I'm sorry you are making zero sense.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2190 on: February 26, 2025, 11:51:28 PM »
Quote from: Outrider link=topic=18937.msg902315#msg902315 ate=1740599534

,"avoiding Putin publishing sordid details,"

You're referring to Trump's little party with prostitutes, in which he took great pleasure in "golden streams"? Wouldn't he just start blathering "Fake news" all over again?
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Le Bon David

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2191 on: February 27, 2025, 09:14:37 AM »
Putin is accepting Ukrainian sovereignty now, on the understanding that his immediate opportunity to annex the entire country is gone - he may or may not be planning to wait a while and try again, as he did last time, and he has his short-term goal which is a land corridor to the Black Sea port region of Crimea that he annexed on his first unjustified illegal invasion.

Putin doesn't WANT Ukrainian sovereignty, but he'll accept that it continues and pitch it like it's some sort of beneficent gesture on his part while his stooge backstabs Ukraine and America's allies - it's up to you what you think Trump gets out of it, but the claim that he brokered peace (who cares who suffers for that ego trip), avoiding Putin publishing sordid details, favourable mineral deals for the US that he can claim as his doing, some of all of the above...

O.
From watching some of the interviews Putin has given over the last decade, his main concern was Russia's security, including Russian speakers across the border. This meant that Ukraine had to remain neutral. He was open to Ukraine's EU membership, as long as the EU remains purely an economic union. But now the EU is edging towards military union too, so it's less likely that Putin will be ok with Ukraine's membership.

He didn't intend to annex it. As I understand it, on the advice of his army chief he invaded as far as Kiev in order to prevent the Ukrainian army concentrating too many troops in Donbas. The Russians withdrew from Kiev after Ukraine initialed the draft peace treaty drawn up in Istanbul. Then the Ukrainians, seeing the Russians had withdrawn, refused to ratify the treaty.
His illegal invasion of Crimea was his response to the illegal US, Biden/Nuland-led "Yats is the guy" coup, which pushed out the neutral president and opened the door for Ukraine to join NATO.

We have yet to see what Trump and his team do. They and Russia have so far only established plans to reinstate respective embassies, the first step towards normalising relations. They wanted to recoup the money the previous administration gave Ukraine, while not taking part in the war, but (I think?) have accepted they won't get that money back. At the moment the plan seems to be that Ukraine will exchange rare minerals for reconstruction work, not military aid. Trump suggested that the US might protect it's people who will be involved in the reconstruction, and in that way give a security guarantee to the country. The problem is the Russians won't stop the fighting if it means allowing Western troops into Ukraine.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2192 on: February 27, 2025, 09:30:33 AM »
From watching some of the interviews Putin has given over the last decade, his main concern was Russia's security, including Russian speakers across the border. This meant that Ukraine had to remain neutral. He was open to Ukraine's EU membership, as long as the EU remains purely an economic union. But now the EU is edging towards military union too, so it's less likely that Putin will be ok with Ukraine's membership.

He didn't intend to annex it. As I understand it, on the advice of his army chief he invaded as far as Kiev in order to prevent the Ukrainian army concentrating too many troops in Donbas. The Russians withdrew from Kiev after Ukraine initialed the draft peace treaty drawn up in Istanbul. Then the Ukrainians, seeing the Russians had withdrawn, refused to ratify the treaty.
His illegal invasion of Crimea was his response to the illegal US, Biden/Nuland-led "Yats is the guy" coup, which pushed out the neutral president and opened the door for Ukraine to join NATO.

We have yet to see what Trump and his team do. They and Russia have so far only established plans to reinstate respective embassies, the first step towards normalising relations. They wanted to recoup the money the previous administration gave Ukraine, while not taking part in the war, but (I think?) have accepted they won't get that money back. At the moment the plan seems to be that Ukraine will exchange rare minerals for reconstruction work, not military aid. Trump suggested that the US might protect it's people who will be involved in the reconstruction, and in that way give a security guarantee to the country. The problem is the Russians won't stop the fighting if it means allowing Western troops into Ukraine.

That so full of lies, it's difficult to know where to start. It's easy to determine whether or not russia's "security concerns" are valid or not. If it involves making other countries less secure, then they're not valid. As for russian speakers, merely speaking russian doesn't make one russian, neither does that give russia the right to invade other countries on their behalf. It's purely an Ukrainian internal affair. Further proof that the claim is invalid, russia massacred anywhere between 30,000 and 100,000 russian speakers in Mariupol alone. As for Kyiv, russia did not withdraw out of some sense of good will. Russia withdrew because the invading troops got smoked. Neither was there any "coup" in 2014. The Rada made an agreement with Yanucovych to see out the rest of his term as president on the condition he wouldn't seek a new term, but then he abandoned his presidency and fled to russia.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2193 on: February 27, 2025, 09:33:34 AM »
From watching some of the interviews Putin has given over the last decade, his main concern was Russia's security, including Russian speakers across the border.

1 - Putin lies. Constantly.
2 - See 1.
3 - 'Russian speakers' have fuck all to do with Putin, often by their own choice. If those Russian speakers want to be Russia they can apply for Russian citizenship. Putin doesn't get to decide three guys in Donbass took GCSE Russian, therefore I can annexe Crimea.
4 - I may have mentioned this, but Putin lies.

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This meant that Ukraine had to remain neutral.

Ukraine is under no formal obligation to do what Putin wants. Ukraine is an autonomous country with its own government, tasked with operating in Ukraine's interests.

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He was open to Ukraine's EU membership, as long as the EU remains purely an economic union.

Bully for him. The people who's interests in whether Ukraine gets to join the EU matter are: 1 - The EU; 2 - Ukraine.

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But now the EU is edging towards military union too, so it's less likely that Putin will be ok with Ukraine's membership.

The EU is being forced to adopt a military stance because of Putin's invasion of Ukraine. That's what's pushed Trump to openly split with Europe over defence, and without US security guarantees someone else has to be more vocal. NATO's inclusion of US hampers its ability to step up, even if it could be worked into the reactive and defensive posture that's written into their charter (and which they've been, rightly, criticised for overstepping in the past).

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He didn't intend to annex it.

He accidently amassed huge numbers of troops and materiel, implemented a draft and lost track of where he put them when they travelled hundreds of miles across a foreign country to destroy infrastructure and defences, and then despite everyone pointing out he'd just started a war he didn't realise he could pull them back? You don't 'accidently' annex 10,000 square miles of a foreign country. Let me guess, he hadn't realised he'd built a bridge there, either?

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As I understand it, on the advice of his army chief he invaded as far as Kiev in order to prevent the Ukrainian army concentrating too many troops in Donbas.

Because he didn't want those troops quelling the unrest his operatives had been agitating because that's what was giving him the excuse for the invasion he wanted in the first place. The second invasion of that country in a decade. The sixth invasion of a foreign country in his time as President. Are you not seeing the pattern?

[quoteThe Russians withdrew from Kiev after Ukraine initialed the draft peace treaty drawn up in Istanbul. Then the Ukrainians, seeing the Russians had withdrawn, refused to ratify the treaty.[/quote]

The Russians were pushed back because their military - in particular their logistics - was incompetent. Ukraine drafted a peace deal - effectively a surrender - in case things went badlly, but their military (with materiel assistance) stepped up, so they didn't need it.

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His illegal invasion of Crimea was his response to the illegal US, Biden/Nuland-led "Yats is the guy" coup, which pushed out the neutral president and opened the door for Ukraine to join NATO.

We've covered that misrepresentation repeatedly, and you trying to pretend it was 'neutral' president is bullshit and you know it. Even if any of that were true, though, internal diplomatic and political activities with Ukraine, even if they make Putin sad, are not sufficient justification for him to send in troops.

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We have yet to see what Trump and his team do.

We've seen plenty. He's offered Putin an olive branch and a way to make money and claim a victory, he's stabbed his Western allies in the back and he seems to be in the process of trying to sell Ukraine's territory out from under them.

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They and Russia have so far only established plans to reinstate respective embassies, the first step towards normalising relations.

Which removes the leverage anyone has over Russia at the moment, which is the sanctions that bites into their economy, targetting the oligarchs who are Putin's support network.

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They wanted to recoup the money the previous administration gave Ukraine, while not taking part in the war, but (I think?) have accepted they won't get that money back.

No, I don't think they have accepted that, I think they're planning to strip the mineral wealth for everything they can get.

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At the moment the plan seems to be that Ukraine will exchange rare minerals for reconstruction work, not military aid.

So that when the US has bled the place dry, it's in no better a position to resist another Russian invasion.

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Trump suggested that the US might protect it's people who will be involved in the reconstruction, and in that way give a security guarantee to the country.

If I were Ukrainian, I'd be sceptical of the effectiveness of that - I suspect there won't be many American-run mining operations in Kyiv.

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The problem is the Russians won't stop the fighting if it means allowing Western troops into Ukraine.

The problem is that Russia would have had to stop the fighting, and the negotiations could have been on a relatively even footing, if Trump hadn't jumped the gun and looked out for himself and America, and fuck everyone else. America could have still had at least some access to mineral rights - Ukraine would have had to repay what's been given to it one way or another - but Ukraine would have been whole or closer to it, would be approaching American relations with a better rapport, and the rest of the world wouldn't be so distrustful of the US.

He's wasted huge amounts of political and social capital for, arguably, a greater portion of less mineral wealth, which he justifiies because it means his political allies - who he sees as his commercial opposition, because he sees everything in commercial terms - get less and the commercial opposition that he fears less and thinks he can make most out of  - Russia - comes out of it better and therefore is amenable to him. He's traded future world security for a quick buck like the lackwitted corporate whore he has always been.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2194 on: February 27, 2025, 09:44:30 AM »
The Rada made an agreement with Yanucovych to see out the rest of his term as president on the condition he wouldn't seek a new term, but then he abandoned his presidency and fled to russia.
yes, because the Right Sector wouldn't stand down?

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2195 on: February 27, 2025, 10:10:45 AM »
The Russians were pushed back because their military - in particular their logistics - was incompetent. Ukraine drafted a peace deal - effectively a surrender - in case things went badlly, but their military (with materiel assistance) stepped up, so they didn't need it.
I know they were incompetent, but the withdrawal was to do with the peace negotiations that were ongoing. Russia doesn't withdraw all that distance just because it is getting smoked.
The point I was making though in response to Maeght was that Putin didn't 'want all of Ukraine'.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2196 on: February 27, 2025, 11:08:40 AM »
yes, because the Right Sector wouldn't stand down?

LOL! Right Sector had exactly zero seats out of 450 at the time. Post Maidan election they got one.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2025, 11:23:01 AM by ad_orientem »
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2197 on: February 27, 2025, 12:57:03 PM »
LOL! Right Sector had exactly zero seats out of 450 at the time. Post Maidan election they got one.
From Wikipedia:
"A coup d'้tat (/ˌkuːdeɪˈtɑː/ ⓘ; French: [ku deta] ⓘ; lit. 'stroke of state'),[1] or simply a coup, is typically an illegal and overt attempt by a military organization or other government elites to unseat an incumbent leadership"

Right Sector "originated in November 2013 as a right-wing, paramilitary confederation of several ultranationalist organizations..."

"On 21 February, an agreement was signed by Yanukovych and leaders of the parliamentary opposition (Vitaly Klitschko, Arseny Yatsenyuk, Oleh Tyahnybok) under the mediation of EU and Russian representatives. There was to be an interim unity government formed, constitutional reforms to reduce the president's powers, and early elections.[92] Protesters were to leave occupied buildings and squares, and the government would not apply a state of emergency.[92] The United States supported a stipulation that Yanukovych remain president in the meantime, but Maidan protesters demanded his resignation."... and refused to leave occupied buildings and squares.

It just says he agreed to early elections, nothing about not seeking re-election?

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2198 on: February 27, 2025, 05:15:53 PM »
Right sector had hardly anything to do with anything. Their support was always low, as reflected by parliamentary elections. The claim falls into that long russian grievance list of things that never actually happened.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2199 on: February 28, 2025, 11:55:26 AM »
I know they were incompetent, but the withdrawal was to do with the peace negotiations that were ongoing.

You keep believing that if you want.

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Russia doesn't withdraw all that distance just because it is getting smoked.

No, if Russia can keep drowning the enemy in bodies it will, but the problem here was that Russia couldn't even get the bodies to the front fast enough to keep up the stream of throwing them into the opposition's bullets.

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The point I was making though in response to Maeght was that Putin didn't 'want all of Ukraine'.

And the point that reality is trying to make clear to you is that Putin didn't just want all of Ukraine, he still does - whether he still believes he can get the rest after what Trump's trying to give him we'll see - and if you think his ambitions stop there you've not been paying attention... which you clearly haven't.

O.
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