Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 159971 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2200 on: February 28, 2025, 05:57:50 PM »
All sweetness and light at the White house


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c625ex282zzt

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2201 on: February 28, 2025, 06:30:37 PM »
All sweetness and light at the White house


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c625ex282zzt

Disgusting treatment of Zelensky.

Gordon

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2202 on: February 28, 2025, 06:49:30 PM »
So the great dealmaker doesn't get his 'deal' on schedule - no doubt it is everyone's fault but his.




Gordon

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2203 on: February 28, 2025, 07:19:59 PM »
I wonder if Trump supporters will conclude that the fiasco today is an indicator that over-confident and under-informed bullying is not a good tactic for their beloved President to employ if he chooses is to wade into complex international problems - I suspect not.

I wonder too if the fancy footwork of Macron and Starmer to try and avoid upsetting Trump has now been rendered meaningless.

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2204 on: February 28, 2025, 07:23:15 PM »
I wonder if Trump supporters will conclude that the fiasco today is an indicator that over-confident and under-informed bullying is not a good tactic for their beloved President to employ if he chooses is to wade into complex international problems - I suspect not.

I wonder too if the fancy footwork of Macron and Starmer to try and avoid upsetting Trump has now been rendered meaningless.

I think it has. They will want to support Zelensky and Trump will turn against them/us because of that.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2205 on: February 28, 2025, 08:12:55 PM »
Disgusting treatment of Zelensky.
Trump as Saruman and Vance as Grima Wormtongue. Except Saruman was reputed to  have been wise once.
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2206 on: February 28, 2025, 08:15:23 PM »
Trump as Saruman and Vance as Grima Wormtongue. Except Saruman was reputed to  have been wise once.

Don't know who they are.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2207 on: February 28, 2025, 08:47:03 PM »
Don't know who they are.
Characters in Lord of The Rings

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2208 on: February 28, 2025, 08:51:39 PM »
Characters in Lord of The Rings

Thanks, never watched it.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2209 on: February 28, 2025, 09:27:41 PM »
I watched the drama and it looks like what happened is: Z started talking about how he hopes the deal will lead to 'real security guarantees'; Vance was responding that the Biden way didn't work, let's try diplomacy; Z asked what sort? Putin doesn't stick to ceasefires. Then Z intimated that if the US doesn't continue military aid packages, the US will at some point be at war and will feel what Ukraine feels. At which point Trump stepped in with, you're not gonna drag us into the war.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2210 on: February 28, 2025, 10:26:00 PM »
I watched the drama and it looks like what happened is: Z started talking about how he hopes the deal will lead to 'real security guarantees'; Vance was responding that the Biden way didn't work, let's try diplomacy; Z asked what sort? Putin doesn't stick to ceasefires. Then Z intimated that if the US doesn't continue military aid packages, the US will at some point be at war and will feel what Ukraine feels. At which point Trump stepped in with, you're not gonna drag us into the war.

Pretty much, which just goes to show that while Trump was talking about diplomacy, he wasn't practicing it. He wasn't listening to what Zelensky was saying, which was that Putin can't be trusted, and giving in to him now just encourages him that these invasions work. He'll re-arm, refinance and be back invading someone else, and that conflagaration may be bigger and more involved.

Trump's need to try and look tough and dictate the terms worked against him, and peace. He's telling Zelinsky that unless he takes a bad deal, he'll be at war and risk everything, and that risk extends to the US - 'You're risking World War III' - that's just giving Zelinsky leverage. Trump's offering him nothing for the lives already spent, and offering the perpetrator a cushy deal and all the land he's illegally annexed, why would anyone take that deal if it didn't come with some sort of guarantee that the peace is going to last or be enforced - which is what he was asking when he put to Vance 'what sort of diplomacy are we talking about'.

Putin can't be trusted, he knows that and he's not going to take the word of a proven liar and fraudster who stands to benefit personally that this time it will be different.

O.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2211 on: February 28, 2025, 10:37:42 PM »
Isn't it so wonderful that the king has given the incontinent orange idiot a personal invitation to visit the UK.

Just imagine the warmth of the welcome that the British public will give as his motorcade glides along the Mall.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2212 on: March 01, 2025, 09:02:10 AM »
Still amazed by that press conference. The idiot asking about a suit, ffs!

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2213 on: March 01, 2025, 10:05:13 AM »
Still amazed by that press conference. The idiot asking about a suit, ffs!
At least Zelensky managed ( before the yobs shouted him down) to get in a few words of riposte "After the war, I'll wear a costume, maybe like yours, maybe better..."
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2214 on: March 01, 2025, 12:03:05 PM »
If only Zelensky had worn a suit, maybe Trump wouldn't be sucking Putin's dick. How did we all miss this!
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2215 on: March 01, 2025, 01:29:21 PM »
I wonder if Trump supporters will conclude that the fiasco today is an indicator that over-confident and under-informed bullying is not a good tactic for their beloved President to employ if he chooses is to wade into complex international problems - I suspect not.
Some of them will.
Quote
I wonder too if the fancy footwork of Macron and Starmer to try and avoid upsetting Trump has now been rendered meaningless.

I think so. I don't see how we can cosy up to the Tr*mp Whitehouse without throwing Ukraine under the bus.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2216 on: March 01, 2025, 03:42:06 PM »
List of places to nuke:

1. Moscow
2. The White House
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2217 on: March 01, 2025, 04:57:33 PM »
List of places to nuke:

1. Moscow
2. The White House
What don't you just add in Beijing and Jerusalem for luck

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2218 on: March 02, 2025, 01:05:16 PM »
What don't you just add in Beijing and Jerusalem for luck

I don't want to put words into Ad O's mouth but I would guess because China and Israel are not actively trying to dismember Ukraine.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2219 on: March 03, 2025, 09:51:27 AM »
Pretty much, which just goes to show that while Trump was talking about diplomacy, he wasn't practicing it. He wasn't listening to what Zelensky was saying, which was that Putin can't be trusted, and giving in to him now just encourages him that these invasions work. He'll re-arm, refinance and be back invading someone else, and that conflagaration may be bigger and more involved.

Trump's need to try and look tough and dictate the terms worked against him, and peace. He's telling Zelinsky that unless he takes a bad deal, he'll be at war and risk everything, and that risk extends to the US - 'You're risking World War III' - that's just giving Zelinsky leverage. Trump's offering him nothing for the lives already spent, and offering the perpetrator a cushy deal and all the land he's illegally annexed, why would anyone take that deal if it didn't come with some sort of guarantee that the peace is going to last or be enforced - which is what he was aTsking when he put to Vance 'what sort of diplomacy are we talking about'.

Putin can't be trusted, he knows that and he's not going to take the word of a proven liar and fraudster who stands to benefit personally that this time it will be different.

O.
Trump has a mandate to stop financing the war. The mineral deal would not have worked as long as Europe planned peacekeeping troops, as Russia would not agree to that and would attack them. Macron's "dear Donalds" and Starmer's arm touching, were to try and trick Trump into agreeing to something that would have led, assuming peacekeeping troops, to the US getting into a war with Russia; but Trump, thinking (or pretending to think?) that Russia would accept peacekeeping forces, played along until he saw that Zelensky had no interest in stopping the killing but insists on recapturing the lost territory. Paraphrasing what Z was saying in the buildup: "Putin invaded our land and we hope you can help us push him out" (continue arming us).
I think if Vance hadn't mentioned the forced conscription and propaganda visits, it may not have turned into what it did. In short, though, we now know that Trump is not going to be bribed into helping to continue the war.
Here he is the next day, summarizing what he thinks (from 1 minute onward):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t21OERWmxUY

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2220 on: March 03, 2025, 10:19:06 AM »
Quote
until he saw that Zelensky had no interest in stopping the killing but insists on recapturing the lost territory.

Who started the killing you absolute Putin apologist?

Ukraine is a sovereign nation. What exactly are you not getting about the fact that they have been invaded by another country?

Still, I expect if Trump took a shine to the UK and invaded us you'd be there on bended knee slobbering over his cock.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2221 on: March 03, 2025, 10:20:25 AM »
Trump has a mandate to stop financing the war.

It certainly seems that way, yes. Where is it implicit or explicit in that he has to capitulate to Russia's demands and try to exclude Ukraine from negotiations about the war in their country?

Quote
The mineral deal would not have worked as long as Europe planned peacekeeping troops, as Russia would not agree to that and would attack them.

1 - without some peacekeeping troops, and other security concessions, the deal will not work because Ukraine will not agree to it. It's almost like there needs to be a negotiation, here.
2 - That's Russia's STARTING POINT. The point of a negotiation is to start from what's wanted, and move to what will be acceptable. Ukraine starts from the point that it won't accept peace unless it gets all its land back, but I can't see that surviving a genuine negotiation at this stage, either.

Quote
Macron's "dear Donalds" and Starmer's arm touching, were to try and trick Trump into agreeing to something that would have led, assuming peacekeeping troops, to the US getting into a war with Russia; but Trump, thinking (or pretending to think?) that Russia would accept peacekeeping forces, played along until he saw that Zelensky had no interest in stopping the killing but insists on recapturing the lost territory.

No, no, and no. There is not attempt to 'trick' Trump, there's been an open expectation - based on broad and specific history - that the US would want to be part of any peacekeeping activity. As that becomes less likely, Europe is preparing to commit more. That's not a trick, there's no attempt at deception.

Nobody wants a war with Russia. However, everybody but Trump appears to be concerned that capitulating to Putin just makes another war with Russia involved at some point in the near future more likely. The US is unlikely to be directly affected, militarily, by that, so Trump doesn't give a shit - which is his remit. He's shaping the US presence on the World Stage - or, rather, in the wings instead of being on-stage.

Zelensky has a mandate, too - to defend Ukraine's integrity and peace by both diplomatic and military means. If he sees the possibility for peace and restoring some or all of Ukraine's territory, it's his moral obligation to try to take it. Again, that's not deception, that's his job, that's what he was elected to do.

Quote
Paraphrasing what Z was saying in the buildup: "Putin invaded our land and we hope you can help us push him out" (continue arming us).

Yep. That's what the US has been doing up until now, that's what he hopes the US will continue doing.

Quote
I think if Vance hadn't mentioned the forced conscription and propaganda visits, it may not have turned into what it did.

It wasn't the conscription or the propoganda visits that escalated the meeting into a confrontation - it was Vance (and, by implication, Trump who followed it up) suggesting that Putin's assertions were believable, and implying that the war was Ukraine's and Zelensky's fault in defiance of reality. Blaming the man for his country being attacked, and saying that he should just accept Putin's word that he won't attack when he's already breached exactly that promise to exactly that country to start this conflict was just insulting, and emblematic of the current US administration's attitude which is disdain.

Quote
In short, though, we now know that Trump is not going to be bribed into helping to continue the war.

No, but he does expect to be paid, either by Russia for selling Ukraine down the river, or by Ukraine for not selling them down the river. It's an extortion, pure and simple, but that's what we should expect from a con-man.

Quote
Here he is the next day, summarizing what he thinks (from 1 minute onward): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t21OERWmxUY

I saw it. He lies about the prospects, he lies about the implications of the current situation, and he blatantly sides with Russia. He's scum, he's acting like a coward and a bully, and he's selling Ukraine's future and the USA's heritage for a few roubles and shitty red baseball cap.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2222 on: March 03, 2025, 10:51:36 AM »
Who started the killing you absolute Putin apologist?

Ukraine is a sovereign nation. What exactly are you not getting about the fact that they have been invaded by another country?
I'm aligned with England and the world. You're gambling with World War 3

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2223 on: March 03, 2025, 10:54:08 AM »
It certainly seems that way, yes. Where is it implicit or explicit in that he has to capitulate to Russia's demands and try to exclude Ukraine from negotiations about the war in their country?

1 - without some peacekeeping troops, and other security concessions, the deal will not work because Ukraine will not agree to it. It's almost like there needs to be a negotiation, here.
2 - That's Russia's STARTING POINT. The point of a negotiation is to start from what's wanted, and move to what will be acceptable. Ukraine starts from the point that it won't accept peace unless it gets all its land back, but I can't see that surviving a genuine negotiation at this stage, either.

No, no, and no. There is not attempt to 'trick' Trump, there's been an open expectation - based on broad and specific history - that the US would want to be part of any peacekeeping activity. As that becomes less likely, Europe is preparing to commit more. That's not a trick, there's no attempt at deception.

Nobody wants a war with Russia. However, everybody but Trump appears to be concerned that capitulating to Putin just makes another war with Russia involved at some point in the near future more likely. The US is unlikely to be directly affected, militarily, by that, so Trump doesn't give a shit - which is his remit. He's shaping the US presence on the World Stage - or, rather, in the wings instead of being on-stage.

Zelensky has a mandate, too - to defend Ukraine's integrity and peace by both diplomatic and military means. If he sees the possibility for peace and restoring some or all of Ukraine's territory, it's his moral obligation to try to take it. Again, that's not deception, that's his job, that's what he was elected to do.

Yep. That's what the US has been doing up until now, that's what he hopes the US will continue doing.

It wasn't the conscription or the propoganda visits that escalated the meeting into a confrontation - it was Vance (and, by implication, Trump who followed it up) suggesting that Putin's assertions were believable, and implying that the war was Ukraine's and Zelensky's fault in defiance of reality. Blaming the man for his country being attacked, and saying that he should just accept Putin's word that he won't attack when he's already breached exactly that promise to exactly that country to start this conflict was just insulting, and emblematic of the current US administration's attitude which is disdain.

No, but he does expect to be paid, either by Russia for selling Ukraine down the river, or by Ukraine for not selling them down the river. It's an extortion, pure and simple, but that's what we should expect from a con-man.

I saw it. He lies about the prospects, he lies about the implications of the current situation, and he blatantly sides with Russia. He's scum, he's acting like a coward and a bully, and he's selling Ukraine's future and the USA's heritage for a few roubles and shitty red baseball cap.

O.
The US needs to stop arming Ukraine, as it emboldens them to keep fighting until the last Ukrainian.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2224 on: March 03, 2025, 11:17:18 AM »
'Norwegian fuel supplier refuses U.S. warships over Ukraine' - the press release is interesting


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/norwegian-fuel-supplier-refuses-u-s-warships-over-ukraine/