Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 159782 times)

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2225 on: March 03, 2025, 11:20:20 AM »
I'm aligned with England and the world. You're gambling with World War 3

This is already WW3. Build a fucking bunker!
Peace through superior firepower.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2226 on: March 03, 2025, 11:26:00 AM »
The US needs to stop arming Ukraine, as it emboldens them to keep fighting until the last Ukrainian.

The US can stop arming Ukraine if it wants, but ultimately only Ukrainians will decide how long they fight for. They decide to risk their lives for freedom and the right to choose their own destiny, rather than surrender and suffer certain rape, torture, murder, and having their children stolen from them. We have a moral duty to ensure the latter doesn't happen. I'm sure it must be difficult to see that, being the moral dwarf you are!
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Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2227 on: March 03, 2025, 11:39:35 AM »
Quote
I'm aligned with England and the world. You're gambling with World War 3

Do try and make some fucking sense when you post.

How exactly are you aligned with England?

How am I gambling with WW3?

Appeasement is gambling with WW3, and that is all you and your blowjob mate Trump are offering the world at the moment.

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2228 on: March 03, 2025, 11:48:56 AM »
And I know she wasn't perfect, but Kamala Harris knew exactly what would happen:



If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2229 on: March 03, 2025, 12:56:57 PM »
I'm aligned with England and the world. You're gambling with World War 3

Putin getting what he wants will bring us closer to World War 3.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2230 on: March 03, 2025, 02:18:45 PM »


Appeasement is gambling with WW3, and that is all you and your blowjob mate Trump are offering the world at the moment.
I watched GB News for the 1st time for a year. The presenter, one  Bev Turner had never heard of Neville Chamberlain. A Trump shill, of course, like the hilarious Carla Sands, who gets a lot of air time these days.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2025, 03:22:53 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Le Bon David

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2231 on: March 03, 2025, 04:03:43 PM »
The US needs to stop arming Ukraine, as it emboldens them to keep fighting until the last Ukrainian.

Or, alternately, the US needs to keep up the embargo and sanctions on Russia, or Russia will keep fighting until the last Ukrainian. Your option is predicated on a few things that aren't certain by any means:
1 - Ukraine would rather surrender than die. US not providing arms to Ukraine doesn't guarantee Ukraine will stop resisting, it just means fewer Russians will likely die
2 - Ukraine is better off being alive and Russian than being dead. Some of them perhaps would agree with you, a significant portion (possibly the majority) would not, they remember what it was like to be under the Russian boot, and that was without the levels of overt corruption that are apparent now.
3 - Stopping the current conflict in any way possible means the end of fighting, as though Russia doesn't have a track-record of waiting a few years, re-arming, and then invading somewhere again.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2232 on: March 03, 2025, 04:07:16 PM »
« Last Edit: March 03, 2025, 05:41:28 PM by Nearly Sane »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2233 on: March 03, 2025, 05:56:37 PM »
Putin invading Ukraine for God

https://biz.chosun.com/en/en-international/2025/02/23/H5YBBVSIBNDLXB5YLAJDTRIQZY/
Yea, right.
So, in 988, Volodimir the Great initiates Kyivan Rus and the start of the Orthodox Church - or did he?
Then in 1448 the Council of Moscow replaced Isidore, and Russian Orthodox independence began, as the TRUE Orthodox Church.
Through many schisms and repressions during the USSR, what remained of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church became in the last few decades riddled with satanic Nazis, requiring the Sword of Truth, wielded by the modern Saint Vladimir of Moscow, to purify the land of Ukraine to restore the True Faith.
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Le Bon David

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2234 on: March 03, 2025, 10:42:21 PM »
Lech Walesa's letter to Trump




Your Excellency, Mr. President,

We watched the report of your conversation with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, with fear and distaste. We find it insulting that you expect Ukraine to show respect and gratitude for the material assistance provided by the United States in its fight against russia. Gratitude is owed to the heroic Ukrainian soldiers who shed their blood in defense of the values of the free world. They have been dying on the front lines for more than 11 years in the name of these values and the independence of their homeland, which was attacked by Putin’s russia.

We do not understand how the leader of a country that symbolizes the free world cannot recognize this.

Our alarm was also heightened by the atmosphere in the Oval Office during this conversation, which reminded us of the interrogations we endured at the hands of the Security Services and the debates in Communist courts. Prosecutors and judges, acting on behalf of the all-powerful communist political police, would explain to us that they held all the power while we held none. They demanded that we cease our activities, arguing that thousands of innocent people suffered because of us. They stripped us of our freedoms and civil rights because we refused to cooperate with the government or express gratitude for our oppression. We are shocked that President Volodymyr Zelensky was treated in the same manner.

The history of the 20th century shows that whenever the United States sought to distance itself from democratic values and its European allies, it ultimately became a threat to itself. President Woodrow Wilson understood this when he decided in 1917 that the United States must join World War I. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt understood this when, after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, he resolved that the war to defend America must be fought not only in the Pacific but also in Europe, in alliance with the nations under attack by the Third Reich.

We remember that without President Ronald Reagan and America’s financial commitment, the collapse of the Soviet empire would not have been possible. President Reagan recognized that millions of enslaved people suffered in Soviet russia and the countries it had subjugated, including thousands of political prisoners who paid for their defense of democratic values with their freedom. His greatness lay, among other things, in his unwavering decision to call the USSR an “Empire of Evil” and to fight it decisively. We won, and today, the statue of President Ronald Reagan stands in Warsaw, facing the U.S. Embassy.

Mr. President, material aid—military and financial—can never be equated with the blood shed in the name of Ukraine’s independence and the freedom of Europe and the entire free world. Human life is priceless; its value cannot be measured in money. Gratitude is due to those who sacrifice their blood and their freedom. This is self-evident to us, the people of Solidarity, former political prisoners of the communist regime under Soviet russia.

We call on the United States to uphold the guarantees made alongside Great Britain in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which established a direct obligation to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its relinquishment of nuclear weapons. These guarantees are unconditional—there is no mention of treating such assistance as an economic transaction.

Signed,

Lech Wałęsa, former political prisoner, President of Poland

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2235 on: March 04, 2025, 08:01:32 AM »
An excellent statement from Walesa.

I do hope that those people who are swayed by the Trump/Putin axis of disinformation take note of this.

Sadly, going on past experience on here, and in other places, I doubt it.

The ability to admit they are wrong when they have been taken in so completely is almost impossible in their minds.
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. - God is Love.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2236 on: March 04, 2025, 08:03:24 AM »
Trump suspension support for Ukraine

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c981p3dxnent

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2237 on: March 05, 2025, 07:46:03 AM »
Or, alternately, the US needs to keep up the embargo and sanctions on Russia, or Russia will keep fighting until the last Ukrainian. Your option is predicated on a few things that aren't certain by any means:
1 - Ukraine would rather surrender than die. US not providing arms to Ukraine doesn't guarantee Ukraine will stop resisting, it just means fewer Russians will likely die
2 - Ukraine is better off being alive and Russian than being dead. Some of them perhaps would agree with you, a significant portion (possibly the majority) would not, they remember what it was like to be under the Russian boot, and that was without the levels of overt corruption that are apparent now.
3 - Stopping the current conflict in any way possible means the end of fighting, as though Russia doesn't have a track-record of waiting a few years, re-arming, and then invading somewhere again.

O.
I'm pretty sure most Ukrainians would prefer to compromise and agree to Russia's terms than fight on. The problem is that they are being forced to the front line, and not allowed to leave the country.
Those who don't wish to fight should not be forced to. That is wrong, whether it also happens in Russia or not.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2025, 08:22:21 AM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2238 on: March 05, 2025, 07:53:16 AM »
We call on the United States to uphold the guarantees made alongside Great Britain in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which established a direct obligation to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its relinquishment of nuclear weapons. These guarantees are unconditional—there is no mention of treating such assistance as an economic transaction
Firstly, not guarantees, assurances.
Secondly, as Vance said, giving endless weapons hasn't brought peace.

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2239 on: March 05, 2025, 08:35:09 AM »
Firstly, not guarantees, assurances.
Secondly, as Vance said, giving endless weapons hasn't brought peace.

Because Russia weren't able to take over all of Ukraine. Countries have the right to defend themselves.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2240 on: March 05, 2025, 08:45:54 AM »
I'm pretty sure most Ukrainians would prefer to compromise and agree to Russia's terms than fight on.

Based on what, exactly?

Quote
The problem is that they are being forced to the front line, and not allowed to leave the country.

No, the problem is that they're being invaded by a foreign power.
 
Quote
Those who don't wish to fight should not be forced to.

Arguably, yes.

Quote
That is wrong, whether it also happens in Russia or not.

Is it more wrong than the invasion which you've still, so far as I can tell, refused to condemn? Is it more wrong that Trump's decision to sell out his allies? You're really strongly focused on all of Ukraine's potential flaws apparently in complete isolation from the broader picture which is that they've been pushed into difficult choices by fundamentally unjustifiable aggression and betrayal.

They are, essentially, being bullied, and your suggestion is that they roll over and give Russia their lunch-money.

O.
[/quote]
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2241 on: March 05, 2025, 09:30:34 AM »
Because Russia weren't able to take over all of Ukraine. Countries have the right to defend themselves.
The point is that pumping weapons into Ukraine will provoke Russia to take all of the country, and millions more will die in the process.

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2242 on: March 05, 2025, 09:32:38 AM »
The point is that pumping weapons into Ukraine will provoke Russia to take all of the country, and millions more will die in the process.

Russia wanted to take over all of Ukraine anyway. Putin has referred to Ukraine as an artificial state. He doesn't think it exists as a nation. Ukraine has a right to defend themselves.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2243 on: March 05, 2025, 09:56:23 AM »
Russia wanted to take over all of Ukraine anyway. Putin has referred to Ukraine as an artificial state. He doesn't think it exists as a nation. Ukraine has a right to defend themselves.
Maybe. That doesn't give Ukraine the right to force it's citizens to fight Russia or the right to other countries' weapons.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2244 on: March 05, 2025, 10:05:42 AM »
Maybe. That doesn't give Ukraine the right to force it's citizens to fight Russia or the right to other countries' weapons.

Part of the social contract of being in a country is realising you may be called upon to work for its benefit - in ideal circumstances that option would included things like non-combatant roles, but Russia has not created ideal circumstances.

Ukraine doesn't believe it has a right to anyone else's weapons, it believes it can negotiate terms for paying people to buy their weapons. It believes it can make a case to free states for cooperation against a rogue state that threatens the security and wellbeing of more than just Ukraine - if those countries agree, they enter into agreements.

O.
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2245 on: March 05, 2025, 10:17:11 AM »
Maybe. That doesn't give Ukraine the right to force it's citizens to fight Russia or the right to other countries' weapons.

No 'maybe' about it. Nations at war have often introduced conscription.  It's not nice but it was Russia who invaded and made it happen. Ukraine doesn't have the right to other people's weapons, no, but countries have the right to supply weapons to Ukraine to allow them to defend themselves.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2246 on: March 05, 2025, 11:41:31 AM »
Part of the social contract of being in a country is realising you may be called upon to work for its benefit - in ideal circumstances that option would included things like non-combatant roles, but Russia has not created ideal circumstances.
You are not free to force someone to kill people. If they want to leave the country, or retreat or surrender, they have that right.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2247 on: March 05, 2025, 11:48:06 AM »
Nations at war have often introduced conscription. 
That doesn't make it right

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2248 on: March 05, 2025, 11:49:58 AM »
but countries have the right to supply weapons to Ukraine to allow them to defend themselves.
And they have the right not to.

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2249 on: March 05, 2025, 11:50:33 AM »
That doesn't make it right

Maybe not, but it is not unique to Ukraine.