Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 159592 times)

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2275 on: March 07, 2025, 08:20:06 PM »
Do you acknowledge that Russia has been conscripting hundreds of thousands of men against their will often using force? Yes or no.

Until you do, you can shove your anti-Ukraine propaganda up your arse.
I'm aware that Russia is conscripting men. I don't know if they are using force, perhaps you have evidence to share? Point is two wrongs don't make a right, we should not be supporting any side that uses the methods shown in the video.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2025, 08:32:05 PM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2276 on: March 07, 2025, 08:29:05 PM »
Poland looking to get nuclear weapons


https://archive.vn/FTegI
Apparently he had been asked to wear a suit. He was asked why he hadn't expressed thanks once during that particular press conference, which had been going 40 minutes

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2277 on: March 07, 2025, 08:35:01 PM »
Apparently he had been asked to wear a suit. He was asked why he hadn't expressed thanks once during that particular press conference, which had been going 40 minutes

What?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2278 on: March 07, 2025, 08:35:34 PM »
Apparently he had been asked to wear a suit. He was asked why he hadn't expressed thanks once during that particular press conference, which had been going 40 minutes
I think you may be confused as to the post you are replying to.


Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2280 on: March 07, 2025, 08:38:05 PM »
I think you may be confused as to the post you are replying to.
Your Darth Vader cartoon.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2282 on: March 07, 2025, 08:40:02 PM »
Your Darth Vader cartoon.
it might help if you just said you had replied to the wrong post and reply to the one you meant to.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2283 on: March 07, 2025, 08:49:25 PM »
it might help if you just said you had replied to the wrong post and reply to the one you meant to.

Ah on checking my apologies for having that included

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2284 on: March 11, 2025, 07:04:00 PM »
« Last Edit: March 11, 2025, 07:10:31 PM by Nearly Sane »

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2285 on: March 17, 2025, 01:54:11 PM »
I'm aware that Russia is conscripting men. I don't know if they are using force, perhaps you have evidence to share? Point is two wrongs don't make a right, we should not be supporting any side that uses the methods shown in the video.

It's a war. It's existential for Ukraine. It's existential for Putin too.

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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2286 on: March 18, 2025, 08:59:07 AM »
That is disturbing, but in times of war bad things do happen sadly. No country is ever totally innocent during war. The UK isn't sponsoring such actions but supporting a country in their right to defend themselves and to act to contain Russia's territorial ambitions.
Do you think the wives and mothers of those men being arrested would agree with you?
Russia said in 2021, NATO should move it's military back to pre-1997 positions. For Russia it's not about territory. The Ukrainian fanatics, who we see in these videos are desperate because they are running out of men.
Time to tell them to put down their weapons, time to stop sending them more.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 09:10:23 AM by Spud »

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2287 on: March 18, 2025, 09:33:04 AM »
Do you think the wives and mothers of those men being arrested would agree with you?
Russia said in 2021, NATO should move it's military back to pre-1997 positions. For Russia it's not about territory. The Ukrainian fanatics, who we see in these videos are desperate because they are running out of men.
Time to tell them to put down their weapons, time to stop sending them more.

It is about territory for Russia and Ukraine is trying to defend itself. Russia wants a sphere of influence and most people in that sphere don't want to be aligned with Russia. The main principle is that taking land by force should not stand under international law. That way leads to the 'Big Men' - Xi, Putin, Trump etc - taking land that they want to create their own spheres of influence. A 'deal' imposed by rump on Ukraine will lead to the end for Taiwan and the independence of many other countries as the powers expand their spheres of influence. If Ukraine wants to fight then we should support them and oppose the expansionism of the Big Men.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2288 on: March 18, 2025, 09:34:25 AM »
Do you think the wives and mothers of those men being arrested would agree with you?
Russia said in 2021, NATO should move it's military back to pre-1997 positions. For Russia it's not about territory. The Ukrainian fanatics, who we see in these videos are desperate because they are running out of men.
Time to tell them to put down their weapons, time to stop sending them more.

If the only way russia can feel "safe" is by making its neighbours less safe, then their security concerns are not valid. As for mobilisation, when your country is being invaded there aren't many other options, especially when the goal of that invasion is to erase your national identity. And no, Ukraine isn't running out of men.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2289 on: March 19, 2025, 11:51:55 AM »
Meet the new wsr, same as the old war


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/clynp1nldmxt

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2290 on: March 19, 2025, 01:28:18 PM »
Meet the new wsr, same as the old war


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/clynp1nldmxt

No one with half a brain believes russia wants peace. That must be why MAGA and western vatniks believe he does.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2291 on: March 22, 2025, 09:00:13 PM »
If the only way russia can feel "safe" is by making its neighbours less safe, then their security concerns are not valid.
The problem with this is that it is the same for Western countries which want to make Russia feel unsafe in order that they themselves can feel safe.
The answer is to strike a balance so that neither side increases its security at the expense of the other's security. It's in the United Nations charter.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2292 on: March 22, 2025, 11:22:43 PM »
Quote
The problem with this is that it is the same for Western countries which want to make Russia feel unsafe in order that they themselves can feel safe.

The problem with that is that you are starting from a false premise.

Western countries do not want to make Russia feel unsafe for any reason. They just want the fuckers to stop invading other countries.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2293 on: March 23, 2025, 04:26:54 PM »
The problem with that is that you are starting from a false premise.

Western countries do not want to make Russia feel unsafe for any reason. They just want the fuckers to stop invading other countries.
What I meant to say was that if the only way Western countries can feel "safe" is by making their neighbours less safe, then their security concerns are not valid.
The early NATO expansion wasn't a direct result of Russia invading other countries. It was more a preemptive measure, and Russia reluctantly accepted it. My point was that the stationing of US military infrastructure in ex-Warsaw Pact countries is what Russia wants reversed. It's not asking those countries to leave NATO or planning to invade and take control of those countries. In other words, Russia isn't seeking to annex more territory or to recreate the Soviet Union, as people seem to be claiming.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2294 on: March 24, 2025, 09:27:01 AM »
What I meant to say was that if the only way Western countries can feel "safe" is by making their neighbours less safe, then their security concerns are not valid.

But nobody feels like that in the west. Putting a strong deterrent in place in Eastern Europe isn't to make Russia scared, it's to be make Russia cautious enough not to do another invasion. That makes Eastern Europe, Western Europe AND Russia all safer. Russians might not feel safer, because their leadership will agitate their fears to serve their own expansionist goals and desire for power, but however they feel they'll actually be safer.

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The early NATO expansion wasn't a direct result of Russia invading other countries. It was more a preemptive measure, and Russia reluctantly accepted it.

Russia, morally, had no say in it, and at the time politically, militarily and economically couldn't do anything about it. Now they still don't have the military or economic power to do anything, but they have managed to get a degree of political influence through the Trump twatwaffle - it remains to be seen if Western Europe has the courage to ditch the US - at least for now - and stand up to Russia on their own, and tell the US that Ukraine can be a NATO member and the US can leave if it's not going to take the alliance seriously.

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My point was that the stationing of US military infrastructure in ex-Warsaw Pact countries is what Russia wants reversed.

Of course it does, because the Russian leadership still thinks those countries should be a part of a greater Russian empire. The point isn't what Russia, the US or Western Europe want, it's what do those Eastern European countries think and want - they are sovereign territories, and Russia doesn't get to dictate to them what they should do.

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It's not asking those countries to leave NATO or planning to invade and take control of those countries. In other words, Russia isn't seeking to annex more territory or to recreate the Soviet Union, as people seem to be claiming.

You say that Russia isn't looking to annex more terrain, but their history demonstrates that's exactly what they do. They've invade Ukraine twice in the last decade; the first time they occupied - and continue to illegally occupy - 10% of country in the form of the Crimean peninsula, and now they're illegally occupying a further 8% (ish), having confirmed in the ceasefire for the first invasion that they had no further expansionist intent. Russia lies, constantly, regularly, almost incessantly.

Don't judge their words, judge their actions. And prepare for more gunfire.

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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2295 on: March 24, 2025, 11:51:34 AM »
What I meant to say was that if the only way Western countries can feel "safe" is by making their neighbours less safe, then their security concerns are not valid.
The early NATO expansion wasn't a direct result of Russia invading other countries. It was more a preemptive measure, and Russia reluctantly accepted it. My point was that the stationing of US military infrastructure in ex-Warsaw Pact countries is what Russia wants reversed.
Yes. So they can invade and recreate the Russian empire.

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It's not asking those countries to leave NATO or planning to invade and take control of those countries. In other words, Russia isn't seeking to annex more territory or to recreate the Soviet Union, as people seem to be claiming.

It absolutely is seeking to do that.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2296 on: March 25, 2025, 08:10:51 AM »
10% of country in the form of the Crimean peninsula, and now they're illegally occupying a further 8% (ish), having confirmed in the ceasefire for the first invasion that they had no further expansionist intent. Russia lies, constantly, regularly, almost incessantly.
Yes, but once the law is broken by one party, it's not realistic to expect the other to adhere to it. The annexing of Crimea was a response to the coup, and the annexing of Donbas and land bridge was to prevent the Ukrainians from shelling Crimea and the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk. The longer the range of the weapons supplied to Ukraine, the more territory Russia will take as a buffer zone.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2297 on: March 25, 2025, 08:41:30 AM »
Yes, but once the law is broken by one party, it's not realistic to expect the other to adhere to it.

On the contrary, that's when it becomes critical.

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The annexing of Crimea was a response to the coup,

THERE WAS NO COUP. You keep regurgitating that Kremlin lie, I've repeatedly shown you that there was no coup and you've offered no rebuttal, you just leave it alone for a while and come back to this lie. THERE WAS NO COUP.

Even if there had been a coup, that's still not grounds for a Russian military intervention in an entirely internal Ukrainian situation.

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and the annexing of Donbas and land bridge was to prevent the Ukrainians from shelling Crimea and the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk.

Ukraine wasn't shelling Donetsk or Lugansk before Russians invaded it, nor was there any indication that they would. The annexing of the land bridge of Donbas was because it was a strategic objective that hadn't been accomplished in the first illegal invasion.

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The longer the range of the weapons supplied to Ukraine, the more territory Russia will take as a buffer zone.

Russia is struggling to hold on to the territory has struggled to annex already. Increasing the annexed territory just puts more Russian troops closer to more weapons with more inclination for people to use them - occupying Easter European territory makes Russia, and Russian people, less safe.

O.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2298 on: March 25, 2025, 08:46:28 AM »
Yes, but once the law is broken by one party, it's not realistic to expect the other to adhere to it. The annexing of Crimea was a response to the coup, and the annexing of Donbas and land bridge was to prevent the Ukrainians from shelling Crimea and the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk. The longer the range of the weapons supplied to Ukraine, the more territory Russia will take as a buffer zone.

Imagine having such a warped mind you actually believe all that pony.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #2299 on: March 25, 2025, 01:20:41 PM »
Yes, but once the law is broken by one party, it's not realistic to expect the other to adhere to it.
Actually it is in general terms. Somebody stealing my car does not give me licence to set fire to their house.

However, in this case the side that broke the law (Russia) is ignoring any sanctions and thus, it seems reasonable to me for Ukraine to kill the Russians that are invading it.

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The annexing of Crimea was a response to the coup, and the annexing of Donbas and land bridge was to prevent the Ukrainians from shelling Crimea and the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk. The longer the range of the weapons supplied to Ukraine, the more territory Russia will take as a buffer zone.

All lies.
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