Author Topic: We need to talk about secular humanism.  (Read 24571 times)

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #150 on: February 17, 2022, 03:28:50 PM »
Are you blaming Brussels for your obvious brain fart here?

Is English not your first language? You've correctly identified that there's a brain-fart, but you've mixed up the pronouns in your attribution...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #151 on: February 17, 2022, 03:31:50 PM »
Try saying “Freedom from atheism”. And then ask minority atheists how they feel about that...
Absolutely fine with me.

I think everyone has the right to live their live free from the influence of atheism if that is how they choose, provided it doesn't unduly influence another person's equivalent freedom to be atheist.

And, of course, that is largely how things are at the moment in the UK. Can you explain to me Vlad, exactly how anyone who wants to live their live free from atheism in the UK is unable to do so, given that there are no state funded atheist schools, no state schools that will discriminate against you as a pupil or staff member if you aren't atheist, no special tax concessions for atheists and atheist organisations, no opt-outs from equalities legislation for atheists and atheist organisations, no requirement for atheists and atheist organisations to be automatically represented on public bodies and in public forums, no special slot on peak time radio for atheists and atheist organisations to given their opinions that ban anyone who isn't atheist etc etc.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 03:52:00 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #152 on: February 17, 2022, 03:35:17 PM »
Freedom to choose cheese & freedom from cheese.

It's the new movement to eradicate cheese.
It is a rather good analogy - freedom to choose cheese will include the right for any person to choose to eat cheese, to prefer one cheese over another, to change that preference if they wish.

Freedom from cheese means a person can live their life not just not eating cheese but also not being unduly influenced by the cheese-eaters.

And, of course, there should be absolute freedom for an individual to move from the cheese-eaters to the free-from-cheesers or in reverse whenever they wish.

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #153 on: February 17, 2022, 03:48:56 PM »
Trivialising and sneering and crap analogy.
Try saying “Freedom from atheism”. And then ask minority atheists how they feel about that...

Or “Freedom from (insert name of any religion)” which is effectively what you ARE saying.

Sneering, I'll give you. Trivialising no - you've already done that.

You say gouder I say Gouda. Let's call the whole thing off.

You are getting yourself worked up about something that doesn't exist in terms of this particular saying.

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #154 on: February 17, 2022, 03:56:27 PM »
Or “Freedom from (insert name of any religion)” which is effectively what you ARE saying.
Indeed - and I suspect you and others are perfectly able to live your life free from zoroastrianism Vlad. I suspect zoroastrianism have just about zero impact on the lives of those who wish to live their lives free from zoroastrianism, without in any way influencing the ability of those who choose to follow zoroastrianism to be able to do so. There may be a few quirk, for example I suspect zoroastrianism also has the same tax and equalities opt outs as other religions but otherwise how exactly is your life affected by zoroastrianism if you choose to live your life free from it.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #155 on: February 17, 2022, 04:34:25 PM »
Indeed - and I suspect you and others are perfectly able to live your life free from zoroastrianism Vlad. I suspect zoroastrianism have just about zero impact on the lives of those who wish to live their lives free from zoroastrianism, without in any way influencing the ability of those who choose to follow zoroastrianism to be able to do so. There may be a few quirk, for example I suspect zoroastrianism also has the same tax and equalities opt outs as other religions but otherwise how exactly is your life affected by zoroastrianism if you choose to live your life free from it.
None of this is related to the call for eradication when you use the phrase “Freedom from Religion. The trouble with you andTrentvoyager is that you think you are immune from being offensive in the
Wrong way.

I don’t think we will see you or Trent mentioning the phrase again though.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #156 on: February 17, 2022, 04:53:46 PM »
None of this is related to the call for eradication when you use the phrase “Freedom from Religion.T
There is no call for eradication - I don't want to 'eradicate' religion as I see freedom of religion to be as important as freedom fro religion. So if people want to follow a particular religion, that's fine, so long as it doesn't unreasonably affect the abilities of others to follow a different religion or live their lives from from the influence of religion.

Why is that so hard to understand.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #157 on: February 17, 2022, 05:23:39 PM »
There is no call for eradication - I don't want to 'eradicate' religion as I see freedom of religion to be as important as freedom fro religion. So if people want to follow a particular religion, that's fine, so long as it doesn't unreasonably affect the abilities of others to follow a different religion or live their lives from from the influence of religion.

Why is that so hard to understand.
Was I untroubled by religion back in the late seventies as a non believer? absolutely.
Did I use the untrue defence against people of religion “we’re always having religion rammed down our throat” you betcha.

Did I ever hear people moaning that they wanted their lives to be free from religion? It wasn’t a thing.

Now we’ve had the new atheists and the atheist wanksites on the Internet. There’s a new narrative.
One more heave and we’ll be over the line with our aggressive freedom from religion slogans.......

Anyway what do you think about freedom from secularism? Or freedom from humanism?

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #158 on: February 17, 2022, 05:48:33 PM »
Was I untroubled by religion back in the late seventies as a non believer? absolutely.
Did I use the untrue defence against people of religion “we’re always having religion rammed down our throat” you betcha.

Did I ever hear people moaning that they wanted their lives to be free from religion? It wasn’t a thing.

Now we’ve had the new atheists and the atheist wanksites on the Internet. There’s a new narrative.
One more heave and we’ll be over the line with our aggressive freedom from religion slogans.......
Yawn.


ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #159 on: February 17, 2022, 05:53:43 PM »
Did I ever hear people moaning that they wanted their lives to be free from religion? It wasn’t a thing.
Well actually it was a think - the NSS has been going since 1866, so was alive and well in the 1970s.

And perhaps you heard less about people moaning that they wanted their lives to be free from religion back then, as I suspect people feel more empowered to stand up for fairness and equality than they did in the 70s. In the same was as women were meant to just put up with unequal pay, and gay people were meant to just put up with not being able to get married. The UK has (thankfully) moved on since the 1970s - we are less accepting of special privileges for some (which means discrimination against others) regardless of whether special privileges/discrimination is on the basis of sex, or race, or sexuality or whether you are religious or not.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #160 on: February 17, 2022, 05:56:39 PM »
Anyway what do you think about freedom from secularism? Or freedom from humanism?
Category error:

Secularism is to democracy as christian is to Labour party. Humanism is in the latter category.

You will undoubtedly fail to understand that.

So do I want freedom from secularism - no I don't, any more than I want freedom from democracy. Why, because both democracy and secularisms are inextricably linked to freedom. So you cannot have true political freedom without democracy and you cannot have true freedom of religion without secularism.

Do I want freedom from humanism - sure, fine with me. I think everyone should have the right to live their lives free from humanism provided it doesn't impact on the equal right of others to be humanists.

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #161 on: February 17, 2022, 06:08:30 PM »
Quote
The trouble with you andTrentvoyager is that you think you are immune from being offensive in the
Wrong way.

Do you know what you are actually going on about?

And can you please explain what immunity you think I and ProfD have, because I really don't know what you are babbling about?

Unless you are upset by my dairy-based comparison.

Is there a right way to be offensive?

Surely it is your perception, after all, offence is taken, not given.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #162 on: February 17, 2022, 10:25:59 PM »
Do you know what you are actually going on about?

And can you please explain what immunity you think I and ProfD have, because I really don't know what you are babbling about?

Unless you are upset by my dairy-based comparison.

Is there a right way to be offensive?

Surely it is your perception, after all, offence is taken, not given.
Then complete this sentence Freedom of religion, Freedom from (insert name of religion) if you think it is inoffensive.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #163 on: February 17, 2022, 10:43:35 PM »
Hard secularism and freedom from religion on manoeuvers in the sixties? Not sure the term freedom from religion is explicit
I couldn't quite believe anyone one was this hardass secularist if it's any consolation to you 'soft secularists'

https://education.blogs.archives.gov/2016/04/12/religious-freedom/
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 10:47:29 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #164 on: February 17, 2022, 10:48:08 PM »
Then complete this sentence Freedom of religion, Freedom from (insert name of religion) if you think it is inoffensive.


Freedom of Christianity, freedom from Christianity.

Why is that offensive?

Do you think that my life should be controlled by Christianity or any other religion?

Should I try to ßtop you living your life in a Christian manner?

What aren't you getting? Strikes me you are jußt being contrary for the sake of it.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #165 on: February 17, 2022, 10:52:30 PM »

Freedom of Christianity, freedom from Christianity.

Why is that offensive?

Do you think that my life should be controlled by Christianity or any other religion?

Should I try to ßtop you living your life in a Christian manner?

What aren't you getting? Strikes me you are jußt being contrary for the sake of it.
Why did you choose Christianity? Could you have said the same of other religions? In what way are you not free of christianity? What more needs to be done?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 10:56:10 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33187
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #166 on: February 17, 2022, 10:58:40 PM »

Freedom of Christianity, freedom from Christianity.

Why is that offensive?

Do you think that my life should be controlled by Christianity or any other religion?

Should I try to ßtop you living your life in a Christian manner?

What aren't you getting? Strikes me you are jußt being contrary for the sake of it.
Freedom of religion....you can be any religion you like. Freedom from religion...you must not express it in the public forum.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 11:13:40 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #167 on: February 18, 2022, 07:56:26 AM »
Why did you choose Christianity? Could you have said the same of other religions? In what way are you not free of christianity? What more needs to be done?

Yes, I could have chosen any other religion. Of course, I am free of Christianity, except in a wider cultural sense which I can't, and don't want, to do anything about. All the two parts of that saying mean is that you can't have one without the other. If it was just freedom of religion, then as a non-believer I don't have any kind of guarantee if a more extreme kind of religion should arise in this country. I might not anyway if that were to happen, but there's no point making it easier by you setting up false positions in some deranged attempt to bolster your paranoia concerning secularism.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #168 on: February 18, 2022, 08:00:08 AM »
Freedom of religion....you can be any religion you like. Freedom from religion...you must not express it in the public forum.

And who is stopping you from expressing your religion on here or elsewhere?

Have you visited Huddersfield lately?

Or are you talking about expressing prejudice born out of religion which is a different and thornier subject?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #169 on: February 18, 2022, 08:17:30 AM »
Did I ever hear people moaning that they wanted their lives to be free from religion? It wasn’t a thing.

Now we’ve had the new atheists and the atheist wanksites on the Internet. There’s a new narrative.

You mean all those people who felt they couldn't speak up before, now can? You mean they have a degree of freedom to speak their mind in a way they didn't when the country was more overtly religiously oriented...? If only there was a word for that sort of political environment?

Quote
One more heave and we’ll be over the line with our aggressive freedom from religion slogans.......

So aggressive. The way they go door to door asking if you've heard the... oh, wait... The way they hole up in their tax-exempt premises and... oh, wait... the way they retain reserved slots on the national public broadcaster to spread... oh, wait...

Quote
Anyway what do you think about freedom from secularism?

Secularism is individual freedom from institutional expectations you absolute tool. Freedom from secularism is either religious prohibition a la Soviet Russia, which no-one here is advocating, or it's  choose a religion for your theocracy. Which of those is your preferred option?

Quote
Or freedom from humanism?

Why do you need to be 'free' from humanism, given that it's not incompatible with religious belief? https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Christian_Humanism#:~:text=Christian%20humanism%20is%20the%20belief,faith%20and%20classical%20humanist%20principles.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #170 on: February 18, 2022, 08:19:15 AM »
Freedom of religion....you can be any religion you like.

Or none.

Quote
Freedom from religion...you must not express it in the public forum.

No. Freedom from religion is that I shouldn't be restricted or disadvantaged because you don't have a firm grasp on reality. Say what you like, espouse whatever nonsense you want, so long as I have the right to walk away unscathed.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #171 on: February 18, 2022, 10:58:34 AM »
I've only read the last few posts. I don't see the problem with saying Freedom from Islam or freedom from any other religion, belief, idea or concept.

If Christianity was picked as the religion to be free from in earlier posts I assume it is because Christianity is part of state institutions in this country and therefore has the most impact on the lives of non-religious people e.g. Bishops in the House of Lords.

I don't think there is a problem with some programmes on the BBC being religious because presumably if there is a gap in the market for talking about atheism on TV the producers would commission a series to fill that gap. Is there any evidence of an appetite amongst the British public for such programmes that has been vetoed by the BBC?

I also don't see the issue with religious organisations being given tax breaks - it is government policy to encourage and support charitable activities as that relieves the government of providing the kind of support that many religious organisations provide to the public. While atheists are free to criticise this policy, realistically it's unlikely to be changed for pragmatic reasons. When the atheists can provide stats and forecasts on alternative organisations that provide similar levels of emotional support to the public, that's when things might change. 

I think in the current politically-correct, Twitter mob environment it seems you get spoken to by the police if you express ideas about freedom from certain beliefs and ideas e.g. Freedom from:  trans ideology, LGBTQ inclusiveness ideology, mass immigration etc are a few I can think of where if you say you want freedom from having to listen to people espousing the ideology you could be criticised for committing some kind of micro-aggression at best and charged with a hate crime and 'cancelled' at worst.

Possibly Vlad is saying why be selective about the ideologies and beliefs that people are allowed to openly express that they want to be free from.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #172 on: February 18, 2022, 11:09:28 AM »
Was I untroubled by religion back in the late seventies as a non believer? absolutely.
Did I use the untrue defence against people of religion “we’re always having religion rammed down our throat” you betcha.

Did I ever hear people moaning that they wanted their lives to be free from religion? It wasn’t a thing.

Now we’ve had the new atheists and the atheist wanksites on the Internet. There’s a new narrative.
One more heave and we’ll be over the line with our aggressive freedom from religion slogans.......

Anyway what do you think about freedom from secularism? Or freedom from humanism?

As far as "One more heave and we’ll be over the line with our aggressive freedom from religion slogans" I disagree with your take on it. We're on a religion & ethics forum, and many of the other places where such ideas are expressed are also similar discussion forums - where else would such ideas be expressed if not here. It is no more aggressive than Alan's evangelism or even your ideas about "God-dodging", which I also don't agree with.

Sure, some atheists might be similar to Alan Burns e.g. atheists who believe that they have discovered a 'truth' that will enrich the mind/ body/ soul of anyone who adopts it and yes those atheists might feel so inspired by their 'truth' that they seek out theists on forums to convert so they too can experience the joy if only they would open their minds in the "correct" way.

But I think a lot of atheists probably just feel baffled by the idea of religion or a belief in the supernatural and are on forums to debate the ideas. So if theists come on such forums and express ideas about why people might need religion or gods, the normal human response of anyone who disagrees with ideas being expressed is to challenge the reasoning behind the idea.

Having been an atheist and now as a theist, I find I have the same reaction to people ridiculing me for either holding or not holding a particular belief - which is, that if the belief is sufficiently important to me and if I have examined it and given it serious consideration over the years, I don't feel threatened by other people's ridicule. It provides an interesting insight into their perspective and their personality.

People who want theocracies would want freedom from secularism - and they get to express that idea. So not sure what the problem is with saying you want freedom from something.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #173 on: February 18, 2022, 11:28:38 AM »
I also don't see the issue with religious organisations being given tax breaks - it is government policy to encourage and support charitable activities as that relieves the government of providing the kind of support that many religious organisations provide to the public.
I have no issues with charities getting tax breaks to incentive and support their work. My issue is that there are certainly tax breaks which are provided to religious organisation with charitable status that are not available to any other charities. These provide an unloved playing field where a charity that is also religious is placed in an advantageous position compared to a charity that isn't religious. Two examples being higher threshold exemption from needing to apply for charitable status and exemption from onerous reporting and also complete exemption from business rates, while other charities have only a partial reduction.

There is a broader argument whether delivering religious worship alone should be a charitable aim, regardless of whether that organisation does any broader charitable activities. But that is an argument over the appropriate scope of charitable aims, rather than very clear and very specific special privileges that religious charities benefit from that non religious ones don't.

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17582
Re: We need to talk about secular humanism.
« Reply #174 on: February 18, 2022, 11:41:41 AM »
I don't think there is a problem with some programmes on the BBC being religious because presumably if there is a gap in the market for talking about atheism on TV the producers would commission a series to fill that gap.
I think there are two types of religious programming - the first being programmes about religion, with the aim of informing and educating the audience about some aspect of religious belief. I don't think such programming is controversial, provided is is done in an appropriately balanced manner.

The second type of programme is, in effect, broadcast worship of some form or other, specifically aimed at meeting the religious needs of religious people. Here is where greater care needs to be taken. While I have no great issue on principle care needs to be taken for a public service broadcaster such as the BBC, who needs to be impartial, from being seen to support or even promote particular religious views without balance or challenge. So if within the broadcast of a religious service a minister of religion is permitted to make a statement of faith and opinion (which they will often do within a sermon) which may go well beyond pure religious views, then in the form of balance the BBC needs to ensure that those views can be balanced by other views and challenged appropriately.

In the world of politics, while the BBC might broadcast a minister's speech at a party conference, it will ensure balance by also broadcasting speeches from other parties and having some editorial opinion/challenge from BBC journalists. This never happens with religion. And of course the most egregious example is Thought for the Day - a slot smack in the middle of BBC radios prefer news show, which allows a person to promulgate a specific view, uninterrupted, without balance and without challenge. And that person is not permitted to be someone who is not religious. It is the equivalent of having a 3 minute slot every day where a politician from one of a number of right wing parties can provide any opinion they wish, completely unchallenged, but a left wing politican is never allowed to give their view (or reverse the left/right). That simply isn't right.

Is there any evidence of an appetite amongst the British public for such programmes that has been vetoed by the BBC?
The BBC has been challenged repeatedly to open up Thought for the Day to non religious people who may have just as 'valid' moral and philosophical 'thoughts' pertaining to the issues of the day compared to religious people. The notion has been repeatedly vetoed by the BBC who continue to ban non religious people from the slot.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 11:46:55 AM by ProfessorDavey »