Author Topic: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul  (Read 11681 times)

Sriram

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2022, 01:38:20 PM »


Belief in spirits has nothing to do with understanding biology.  Understanding the mechanisms of a car do not preclude the role of a driver.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2022, 01:48:44 PM »

Belief in spirits has nothing to do with understanding biology.  Understanding the mechanisms of a car do not preclude the role of a driver.
Not sure that is a useful analogy Sriram.

We don't need to have 'belief' that a car exists, nor that its driver exists, nor that one is required for the other to operate (assuming it isn't an autonomous vehicle). Understanding the mechanisms of a car is a useful adjunt but not essential.

Spirits, on the other hand, are entirely different to a car or a driver as there is no evidence for their existence, unlike the car and a driver. Hence the need for belief, which is pound-store 'evidence'.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 02:14:29 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2022, 04:16:32 PM »
(apologies for this late response)

Once you can accept the concept of a spiritual entity (the soul) having control over certain functions of a material body, is is feasible that there could be circumstances when a different spiritual entity can somehow take over control of the same body.  This would explain many of the "dual personality" features mentioned previously.  It is also backed up in the New Testament which describes several examples of a person being possessed by evil spirits.  And there is the dangerous practice of Ouija boards which involves inviting other "spirits" to take over the control of our physical bodies.  The Roman Catholic Church recognises this danger and forbids its use to members of the church.  And exorcism (the casting out of other spiritual entities) is still a recognised religious practice.

Hi Alan

Glad you were able to join the conversation.
I think there is a need to amplify the details of the psychological disorder in question. D.I.D., as far as can be ascertained, can almost always be traced back to a period of extreme physical and psychological abuse, most often in childhood. The conventional explanation is that the developing personality retreats from these traumas by developing protective selves, which then can dominate the original person, just in order to allow the organism to function in the world at all (personality A suffers abominably, personality B is cunning, strong and dominant and able to escape from such suffering - and so on with often a nested 'onion' of other personalities). In some cases, it can appear to the outside world that the second or third personality to appear is the real self, for a very long time. The question is: what is happening to the original self, trapped in this cycle of abuse? Can such a self be considered to develop in the way that the rest of us do, in order to make decisions, and to be specific, in a Christian sense, to make one moral choice over another? Or to choose Christ as their saviour? Maybe the original self is now so enfeebled as to be incapable of making any choice; maybe personality B chooses to be a Christian, and personality C will have none of this, and refuses to take any of the steps that B wishes to embark on. I'm just speculating here, but some of the instances of D.I.D appear to be far more bizarre than this.

Well then, let's reflect on some of your suggestions of demonic possession, for the sake of argument. It is bad enough that a loving, all powerful God would allow such prolonged abuse of a child to occur in the first place, but to suggest that such a wounded and suffering individual should then be subjected to invasion by evil spirits, and this again is allowed to happen, does not reflect well upon the deity. To cite your example of people playing around with Ouija boards as inviting trouble for themselves, or perhaps attending 'Spiritualist' seances*, at least suggests that they have put themselves in harms way - but that an innocent child should be attacked in such a way with impunity is really quite a ghastly suggestion IMO.

*The matter of Spiritualist seances is a significant one, with regard to how many different faces a human can present when the conditions are right - and here I speak from personal experience. I did for a short while attend a Spiritualist church, and witnessed a number of bizarre phenomena. One that particularly stuck in my memory was that of a very pleasant, seemingly feminine young medium, whose normal voice was light, high and very female, beginning to talk (when 'possessed') in a deep bass male voice, such as one would not think her larynx and vocal chords were capable of. I can confidently say she was not a natural male in drag and speaking falsetto in her everyday voice :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 05:03:26 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2022, 04:37:56 PM »
(apologies for this late response)

Once you can accept the concept of a spiritual entity (the soul) having control over certain functions of a material body,
But why would you accept that assertion unless there is evidence to support it.

... is is feasible that there could be circumstances when a different spiritual entity can somehow take over control of the same body.
But that is based on the unevidenced assertion, so is moot until or unless you can provide evidence to support an assertion of 'a spiritual entity (the soul) having control over certain functions of a material body'.

This would explain many of the "dual personality" features mentioned previously.
But there are much more tenable explanations for dual personalities based on neurology that are supported by evidence. 

It is also backed up in the New Testament which describes several examples of a person being possessed by evil spirits.
But people writing 2000-ish years ago had no understanding of how the brain works, so necessarily will rely on 'making stuff up' to explain observations. People have done this countless times e.g. explanations for earthquakes involving giant earth-bearing elephants moving. 

And there is the dangerous practice of Ouija boards which involves inviting other "spirits" to take over the control of our physical bodies.  The Roman Catholic Church recognises this danger and forbids its use to members of the church.  And exorcism (the casting out of other spiritual entities) is still a recognised religious practice.
But these are two sides of the same unevidenced assertion-based approach and are therefore both as dangerous as each other. If someone is considered to be possessed by demons, or spirits the place to go is evidence based clinical practice.

Alan Burns

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2022, 04:59:25 PM »
But why would you accept that assertion unless there is evidence to support it.

To claim there is no evidence is wrong.
I presume you mean that there is no scientific evidence, and in this you fail to acknowledge the limitations of human scientific discovery.

As I have pointed out many times on this forum, the evidence for the human soul lies in the capabilities of the human mind - which go far beyond what can be achieved or defined within a purely scientific model.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 05:45:07 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2022, 05:25:06 PM »
Hi Alan

Glad you were able to join the conversation.
I think there is a need to amplify the details of the psychological disorder in question. D.I.D., as far as can be ascertained, can almost always be traced back to a period of extreme physical and psychological abuse, most often in childhood. The conventional explanation is that the developing personality retreats from these traumas by developing protective selves, which then can dominate the original person, just in order to allow the organism to function in the world at all (personality A suffers abominably, personality B is cunning, strong and dominant and able to escape from such suffering - and so on with often a nested 'onion' of other personalities). In some cases, it can appear to the outside world that the second or third personality to appear is the real self, for a very long time. The question is: what is happening to the original self, trapped in this cycle of abuse? Can such a self be considered to develop in the way that the rest of us do, in order to make decisions, and to be specific, in a Christian sense, to make one moral choice over another? Or to choose Christ as their saviour? Maybe the original self is now so enfeebled as to be incapable of making any choice; maybe personality B chooses to be a Christian, and personality C will have none of this, and refuses to take any of the steps that B wishes to embark on. I'm just speculating here, but some of the instances of D.I.D appear to be far more bizarre than this.

Well then, let's reflect on some of your suggestions of demonic possession, for the sake of argument. It is bad enough that a loving, all powerful God would allow such prolonged abuse of a child to occur in the first place, but to suggest that such a wounded and suffering individual should then be subjected to invasion by evil spirits, and this again is allowed to happen, does not reflect well upon the deity. To cite your example of people playing around with Ouija boards as inviting trouble for themselves, or perhaps attending 'Spiritualist' seances*, at least suggests that they have put themselves in harms way - but that an innocent child should be attacked in such a way with impunity is really quite a ghastly suggestion IMO.

*The matter of Spiritualist seances is a significant one, with regard to how many different faces a human can present when the conditions are right - and here I speak from personal experience. I did for a short while attend a Spiritualist church, and witnessed a number of bizarre phenomena. One that particularly stuck in my memory was that of a very pleasant, seemingly feminine young medium, whose normal voice was light, high and very female, beginning to talk (when 'possessed' in a deep bass male voice, such as one would not think her larynx and vocal chords were capable of). I can confidently say she was not a natural male in drag and speaking falsetto in her everyday voice :)
Thanks for your detailed response, DU

I concede that I do not know a lot about DID and there may well be a psychological explanation.

regarding your last paragraph -
I remember reading of people being put under hypnosis who were able to give extraordinary detail about a previous life - details which could be verified as being historically accurate.  When the person came out of hypnosis they had no recollection of their apparent previous life.  To me this shows further evidence for separate spiritual entities being able to utilise the functionality of the same biological body under certain conditions.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2022, 06:40:58 PM »
As I have pointed out many times on this forum, the evidence for the human soul lies in the capabilities of the human mind - which go far beyond what can be achieved or defined within a purely scientific model.
That isn't evidence of a human soul - any more than earthquakes are evidence of giant earth-bearing elephants. Come back when you actually understand what evidence is Alan.

Alan Burns

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2022, 07:07:00 PM »
That isn't evidence of a human soul - any more than earthquakes are evidence of giant earth-bearing elephants. Come back when you actually understand what evidence is Alan.
There is a valid scientific explanation for earthquakes.
There is no valid scientific definition of what comprises conscious awareness, or how it manifests from material reactions alone.
There is no valid scientific explanation for human free will - other than the assertion that it does not exist (but our ability to assert is evidence that it does exist)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 07:10:54 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2022, 08:29:52 PM »

There is no valid scientific explanation for human free will - other than the assertion that it does not exist (but our ability to assert is evidence that it does exist)

No, that is merely evidence of the exercise of will. but not that it is 'free' of something.

Enki

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2022, 09:46:24 PM »
There is a valid scientific explanation for earthquakes.
Yes

Quote
There is no valid scientific definition of what comprises conscious awareness, or how it manifests from material reactions alone.
Agreed, although there has been valuable scientific progress on how consciousness relates to brain activity. But, so what? That still doesn't signify one iota of evidence that there is such a thing as a 'soul, which was the point you were supposed to be addressing.

Quote
There is no valid scientific explanation for human free will - other than the assertion that it does not exist (but our ability to assert is evidence that it does exist)

There is no evidence that 'free will'(at least in the form that you seem to favour) actually exists, just as there is no evidence that it is controlled in some way by some sort of vague and unevidenced entity called 'the human soul'. Our ability to assert things is simply evidence that, at that precise moment, our minds have decided on that course of action. nothing more.
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Sriram

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2022, 07:45:49 AM »

Belief in spirits has nothing to do with understanding biology.  Understanding the mechanisms of a car do not preclude the role of a driver.


The point is simple.   Explaining phenomena only in terms of their mechanisms is not good enough.

Alan Burns

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2022, 08:31:22 AM »
Come back when you actually understand what evidence is Alan.
I can assure you that I have all the evidence I need to give me unshakeable knowledge of the reality of God's existence and of my own spiritual nature.
You appear to have a very narrow view of what comprises evidence.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2022, 08:38:15 AM »
Not sure that is a useful analogy Sriram.

We don't need to have 'belief' that a car exists, nor that its driver exists, nor that one is required for the other to operate (assuming it isn't an autonomous vehicle). Understanding the mechanisms of a car is a useful adjunt but not essential.

Spirits, on the other hand, are entirely different to a car or a driver as there is no evidence for their existence, unlike the car and a driver. Hence the need for belief, which is pound-store 'evidence'.
You seem to have missed the point.
The driver has the power to choose which direction to go.
The car, being mechanistic, has no choice - it just reacts to its controls.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 09:16:46 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2022, 09:07:22 AM »
....
There is no valid scientific explanation for human free will - other than the assertion that it does not exist (but our ability to assert is evidence that it does exist)

Let us take the condition referred to by Torridon in the second post in this thread. The operation to sever the corpus callosum in the brain can result in two separate personalities analogous to the situation in D.I.D. Torridon cites an instance where the personality of one hemisphere became a Christian*, whereas the other became atheist.

Where is human freewill in such a situation? Would you say that the hemisphere that became Christian was exercising free will, whereas the other was possessed by a demon after the operation?

*Torridon uses the word 'religious', but his final comment indicates that he had Christian or Muslim in mind.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 09:11:36 AM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2022, 09:17:41 AM »
I can assure you that I have all the evidence I need to give me unshakeable knowledge of the reality of God's existence and of my own spiritual nature.
What an incredibly arrogant and conceited comment ... and dangerous too.

I'm a professional scientist and I and the rest of my profession never claim we have all the evidence and all the knowledge. Our profession is completely based on the view that we never know everything and we should always strive to know more, to obtain more evidence. And in doing so we constantly reassess what we previously thought we knew. If those prior assumptions still stand up in the face of new evidence we continue to accept those theories as the best explanations. If not we reassess and change those theories. And we are basing knowledge on evidence, not assertion/belief.

Why is it dangerous - well because the mindset that has an 'unshakable' belief in something not backed up by evidence can develop unshakable beliefs in anything, however unethical.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2022, 09:21:11 AM »
I can assure you that I have all the evidence I need to give me unshakeable knowledge of the reality of God's existence and of my own spiritual nature.
No you don't Alan - you have an unshakable belief - belief and knowledge are not the same thing. If there was evidence you would be able to provide that evidence in a manner that would be compelling to anyone. But you can't and nor can any theist as there is no credible evidence for the existence of god or gods. And religions know this, which is why they are couched in the language of belief and/or faith, not knowledge.

The difference between faith/belief and knowledge is evidence - the former aren't evidence based, the latter must be. Belief in god is just that, unevidenced belief.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 09:33:46 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2022, 09:32:39 AM »
Fortunately, since there is no evidence that the premise is true (that a spiritual entity called there soul exists), we can dismiss this statement.
Those were all made up stories by people who didn't understand human biology.

The most dangerous thing about these is that there are people who believe they are something more than pure hokum and for whom they can therefore have traumatic consequences. It would be much better to educate people out of their superstitions.
Are you saying that consciousness and/also known as the soul is mechanistic because the nervous connections which make the brain are mechanistic?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2022, 10:04:50 AM »
You seem to have missed the point.
The driver has the power to choose which direction to go.
Which is a product of the neuronal complexities of the human brain. And understanding the mechanistic relationships between neuronal complexity, human behaviours and decision making is an extremely interesting topic for neuroscience research and an area where we have a lot more to learn.
The car, being mechanistic, has no choice - it just reacts to its controls.
Not so if the car is an autonomous vehicle with sophisticated AI embedded. In which case the car is also able to make its own decisions about which direction to go in.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2022, 10:22:49 AM »
Which is a product of the neuronal complexities of the human brain. And understanding the mechanistic relationships between neuronal complexity, human behaviours and decision making is an extremely interesting topic for neuroscience research and an area where we have a lot more to learn.Not so if the car is an autonomous vehicle with sophisticated AI embedded. In which case the car is also able to make its own decisions about which direction to go in.
I think we need to learn if there is a leap from mechanistic neuronal activity to  mechanistic consciousness first.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 10:26:31 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2022, 10:24:13 AM »
There is a valid scientific explanation for earthquakes.
Classic god of the gaps non-sense.

Sure we have a valid scientific explanation, but we didn't always have one. At one stage in our history we didn't know how earthquakes happened and we made stuff up that was wrong. Your argument seems to be that if we don't know something we should accept any old non-sense without evidence. Affectively that earthquakes really did used to be generated by the movement of giant elephants. That wasn't true then and it isn't true now. The difference is that we now have a pretty good understanding (albeit not exhaustive) of how earthquakes work.

And of course we actually have some pretty good and rapidly developing knowledge on the relationships between neural complexity, consciousness, behaviour and decision making. We, of course, need to know more (as we always should strive to), but you seem to be arguing that because we don't know everything we should accept the equivalent of giant elephants.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2022, 10:26:44 AM »
I think we need to learn if there is a leap from mechanistic neuronal activity and consciousness first.
Actually we need to define consciousness first and then understand the links. And of course there has been a huge amount of research and published results linking neuronal activity and consciousness over the past few decades.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2022, 10:30:50 AM »
...  mechanistic consciousness first.
What on earth do you mean by mechanistic consciousness.

Sriram

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2022, 11:52:30 AM »
Not so if the car is an autonomous vehicle with sophisticated AI embedded. In which case the car is also able to make its own decisions about which direction to go in.


The AI in the car does not happen through random variation. It happens through intelligent intervention, intent and deliberate design. Evolution (of cars and AI) is also a part of the process btw.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2022, 11:57:16 AM »
What on earth do you mean by mechanistic consciousness.
Which aspect are you having trouble with here mechanistic or consciousness?
By mechanistic consciousness we mean a physical system comprised of parts, physically connected.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 12:46:00 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Dissociative Identity Disorder and the Soul
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2022, 01:28:00 PM »
Which aspect are you having trouble with here mechanistic or consciousness?
By mechanistic consciousness we mean a physical system comprised of parts, physically connected.
But consciousness is a state of awareness - the mechanistic part is the physical elements that are required for consciousness to exist, i.e. the mechanistic neuronal activity - hence add ing a second mechanistic is totally redundant. It implies that there is consciousness that is the result of mechanistic elements and consciousness that is independent of any mechanistic elements. And of course you have no evidence for the latter, albeit there is huge amounts of evidence for the former, albeit there is much more we need to understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness