Author Topic: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?  (Read 11475 times)

SteveH

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #150 on: August 01, 2022, 06:33:06 PM »
Is that any worse than smokers getting treatment for lung conditions on the NHS?
A lung condition is an illness, whatever caused it. An abortion because the parents don't want a baby at the moment isn't.
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Roses

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #151 on: August 01, 2022, 06:43:00 PM »
A lung condition is an illness, whatever caused it. An abortion because the parents don't want a baby at the moment isn't.

Smoking causes lung cancer as well as other conditions, people are advised to give up smoking and if they don't they are putting their health in danger.
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SteveH

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #152 on: August 01, 2022, 08:26:16 PM »
Smoking causes lung cancer as well as other conditions, people are advised to give up smoking and if they don't they are putting their health in danger.
Obviously, but that has absolutely nothing to do with abortion. If you want to argue for smokers having to pay for their treatment, do so on a new thread.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #153 on: August 03, 2022, 11:49:58 AM »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Roses

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Alan Burns

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #155 on: August 04, 2022, 07:52:20 PM »
I think that distinction is complicated by the fact that the embryo has no ability to survive on its own.
A new born baby has no ability to survive on its own.
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Outrider

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #156 on: August 05, 2022, 09:22:22 AM »
A new born baby has no ability to survive on its own.

Long-term, no, but it's a viable situation (normally). Premature babies, equally can survive with the normal support of parents, and with medical developments we can now improve that support and make earlier births viable in the long-term, but there is a limit. There is a point at which no support we have will turn a birth into a viable long-term prognosis.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #157 on: August 05, 2022, 12:32:04 PM »
A new born baby has no ability to survive on its own.
Perhaps I should have been clearer - while a new born baby cannot survive on its own any number of people can provide the baby with the conditions it needs to survive, not necessarily the mother. That isn't the case for an embryo - which can only survive with the support of a single person, the mother. No other person can substitute for the mother and therefore the views and choices of the mother are paramount in a manner that wouldn't be the case after the baby is born.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #158 on: August 05, 2022, 12:36:59 PM »
There is a point at which no support we have will turn a birth into a viable long-term prognosis.
That is true - and it doesn't just apply to babies - as we are seeing with Archie Battersby, the settled medical opinion is that due to the loss of brain stem function that there is no viable long-term prognosis and therefore the legal opinion is that it is in Archie's best interests for life sustaining support to be withdrawn.

Alan Burns

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #159 on: August 05, 2022, 03:31:18 PM »
Perhaps I should have been clearer - while a new born baby cannot survive on its own any number of people can provide the baby with the conditions it needs to survive, not necessarily the mother. That isn't the case for an embryo - which can only survive with the support of a single person, the mother. No other person can substitute for the mother and therefore the views and choices of the mother are paramount in a manner that wouldn't be the case after the baby is born.
For the first nine months of a baby's life the support needed is automated.  The mother does not need to anything apart from endure the physical and mental discomfort of pregnancy.  And as you correctly point out, once the baby is born any number of people can provide the baby with the conditions it needs to survive,
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Roses

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #160 on: August 05, 2022, 03:41:20 PM »
For the first nine months of a baby's life the support needed is automated.  The mother does not need to anything apart from endure the physical and mental discomfort of pregnancy.  And as you correctly point out, once the baby is born any number of people can provide the baby with the conditions it needs to survive,

YE GODS AB, you might feel rather differently if you were capable of getting pregnant and had no wish to have a child, especially if it was the result of being raped! :o
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #161 on: August 05, 2022, 04:11:43 PM »
For the first nine months of a baby's life the support needed is automated.  The mother does not need to anything apart from endure the physical and mental discomfort of pregnancy.  And as you correctly point out, once the baby is born any number of people can provide the baby with the conditions it needs to survive,
'The mother does not need to anything apart from endure the physical and mental discomfort of pregnancy. ' Apart from is doing a fuck of a lot of heavy lifting there. Feels like deep misogyny.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #162 on: August 14, 2022, 10:46:29 AM »
You were once a zygote
Correct me if I misunderstand but in AB's reality....

"You" are a "soul" which "resides" not in this physical universe and only "visits"  here when you are conscious in oder to basically make decisions based on an interaction with physical brain inputs?

I have questions once/if that can be agreed as your position.

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Robbie

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #163 on: August 24, 2022, 11:26:20 AM »
I'm not up to date with this. Is Roe v Wade being overturned? I'm aware people have wanted it overturned but I can't see it happening. I hope not!
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #164 on: August 24, 2022, 07:36:30 PM »
For the first nine months of a baby's life the support needed is automated.  The mother does not need to anything apart from endure the physical and mental discomfort of pregnancy.  And as you correctly point out, once the baby is born any number of people can provide the baby with the conditions it needs to survive,
That's easy for you to say, given you will never experience pregnancy or childbirth. The closest you will ever come to feeling any of the pain or challenges of pregnancy and childbirth is seeing someone you care about suffering or possibly dying. Women on the other hand actually have to go through the experience - they don't just get to walk away or watch from the sidelines like you.

I can see how in the past people could be dismissive about the risks and hardships of pregnancy - society was dismissive about lots of hardships that people faced and indifferent to the risk of death if they thought it served the needs of others. We routinely had conscription for men to serve as canon-fodder but values have changed in the last 50 years in many places, whereby conscription ended and the rights and freedoms of individuals to not be forced to risk their well-being became more important in many different aspects of life. Though many of our governments still enact policies that kill/ harm people in other countries if it serves certain social, economic or political interests. But you being so dismissive of the burden of pregnancy on women does not make for a persuasive argument against abortion.

The inequality of the burden faced by mothers will make many women see abortion as the best available option for them despite the sad death of the foetus. You have suggested no solutions for this unequal burden on women compared to men. Your prioritisation of the life of the foetus over the well-being of the pregnant mother is arbitrary. Not sure if it's actually down to your religion as currently many Catholics in this survey seem to be persuaded that that it is more moral to support the right for a woman to choose to have an abortion rather than being forced to continue with their pregnancy and the associated risks to their well-being.  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/20/8-key-findings-about-catholics-and-abortion/

Given the unequal burden, it's not surprising that a lot of people came to the conclusion that it is unethical and unjustifiable that a woman can be forced to pay the price for decisions made by a man and a woman, or in the case of rape the decisions made solely by a man.

During the 9 months a mother has to do pretty much everything a man has to do, while also enduring all the physical pain and health complications brought on by pregnancy and childbirth - she has to travel to work and perform her job in order to pay her mortgage or rent, bills and other expenses, undertake the usual physically tiring activities of daily life while trying to cope with nausea and vomiting, shortness of breath as the lungs can't expand fully as the baby grows, painful loosening of pelvic ligaments that make it painful to walk or get up, sit down, turn over, possible separation of abdominal muscles. Giving birth can leave many women with severely weakened pelvic floor muscles and a degree of incontinence. She runs the risk of post-natal depression and back pain.

Pregnancy may result in a woman having to drop out of school or university or getting fired or sidelined from her job. Her productivity or learning of new job skills and responsibilities may reduce due to health issues caused by pregnancy or because she has to take maternity leave. This may have long-term implications for her future salary and pension and she may become vulnerable to exploitation. If she is single she may be more harshly judged by society for an unplanned pregnancy compared to the baby's father or may find it difficult to find a new relationship while pregnant, unlike the father. Or she may be stuck in a bad relationship and become more financially dependent on her partner or vulnerable to emotional or physical abuse due to her restricted options, or the hormones and physical changes caused by the pregnancy.

A bigger issue that you have not provided solutions for is the potentially fatal health complications that can come with pregnancy such as gestational diabetes or high blood pressure that can affect the mother’s kidneys, liver, and brain, cause seizures, coma or be fatal. Pregnant women under 20 face significantly higher risk of serious medical complications. Surely you are not unaware of the many reports of how unsafe childbirth is for the mother and the baby due to the potential for unknown complications during childbirth and inadequate health care - see statistics on maternal deaths in the USA https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/30/health/maternal-mortality-statistics-cdc-study/index.html 

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Alan Burns

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #165 on: January 24, 2023, 10:05:50 AM »
A powerful testimony from Jonathan Roumie (March for life 2023)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYY2-wf-cl0
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Aruntraveller

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #166 on: January 24, 2023, 10:10:31 AM »
A powerful testimony from Jonathan Roumie (March for life 2023)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYY2-wf-cl0

Yea. Just ignore the valid points made by VG in the previous post and put up a youtube video.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #167 on: January 24, 2023, 10:23:00 AM »
A powerful testimony from Jonathan Roumie (March for life 2023)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYY2-wf-cl0
If removing foetuses is so bad, why do you worship a god who in your structure is responsible for the most abortions?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 11:08:11 AM by Nearly Sane »

Alan Burns

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #168 on: February 27, 2024, 10:43:45 PM »
Just came across a powerful testimony from an ex abortionist which highlights the harsh reality of what "pro choice" entails

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A16gzm9eaa8
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

SteveH

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2024, 05:58:08 AM »
Just came across a powerful testimony from an ex abortionist which highlights the harsh reality of what "pro choice" entails

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A16gzm9eaa8
He's talking about late abortions (22 weeks), which are thankfully rare. This is a typical deceitful trick of the anti-choice lobby: describing how a late abortion is performed, and pretending that that's how all abortions are performed. If you want to make late abortions as rare as possible, make early ones easier to get, and stop forbidding contraception, as your church irresponsibly does. Also, stop telling us that every speech or article you agree with is "powerful" or "brave": we'll be the judges of that!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 06:07:01 AM by SteveH »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2024, 07:52:53 AM »
He's talking about late abortions (22 weeks), which are thankfully rare. This is a typical deceitful trick of the anti-choice lobby: describing how a late abortion is performed, and pretending that that's how all abortions are performed. If you want to make late abortions as rare as possible, make early ones easier to get, and stop forbidding contraception, as your church irresponsibly does. Also, stop telling us that every speech or article you agree with is "powerful" or "brave": we'll be the judges of that!
Agree up to the last part. If Alan thinks something is 'stunning and brave' then it seems fair enough to me for him to express that opinion, and for others to disagree.

Alan Burns

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Re: Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2024, 07:56:23 AM »
Yea. Just ignore the valid points made by VG in the previous post and put up a youtube video.
All the points made by VG were considering the mother, and they were valid points - but no consideration given to the life of the child in her womb.  There are two lives involved and both lives matter.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton