Roe vs Wade - getting overturned?

[Aruntraveller]

No - abortion is deliberate killing by a human. God alone has the right to take a life, or to authorize the deliberate taking of one. Where in the Bible does God authorize abortion?

By your twisted belief, God authorises death every time a woman miscarries.

As an aside, you do not believe in the death penalty then? The reason I ask this is that the anti-abortionists in the US are very often the same people who clamour for the death penalty, I have always found it a confusing approach to two separate but somewhat linked ethical issues.

[SteveH]

As an aside, you do not believe in the death penalty then? The reason I ask this is that the anti-abortionists in the US are very often the same people who clamour for the death penalty, I have always found it a confusing approach to two separate but somewhat linked ethical issues.

Very few of them are vegetarians or vegans, pacifists, or anti-gun activists either.

[Outrider]

No - abortion is deliberate killing by a human. God alone has the right to take a life, or to authorize the deliberate taking of one. Where in the Bible does God authorize abortion?

Why does god have any right to kill people?

O.

[Udayana]

Why does god have any right to kill people?

O.

Beings that, logically, do not exist can do anything you choose.

[Spud]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordeal_of_the_bitter_water#Abortion_interpretation

That's interesting, but I don't see any indication that the woman in this passage is pregnant. The other night, a film called "Them that Follow" was on. It is based on Mark 16 and being bitten by a snake; a particular cult used a snake as a kind of lie detector, whereby if someone claimed they were a believer they would not be bitten while handling the snake, and if they had been forgiven of a sin they would not be bitten. If they did get bitten then if they had faith they would recover.

[Spud]

By your twisted belief, God authorises death every time a woman miscarries.

As an aside, you do not believe in the death penalty then? The reason I ask this is that the anti-abortionists in the US are very often the same people who clamour for the death penalty, I have always found it a confusing approach to two separate but somewhat linked ethical issues.

I think the death penalty is the only just punishment for murder, but because it isn't always possible to prove someone guilty I think it is better not to allow it. A foetus has not committed murder, note!

[jeremyp]

I think the death penalty is the only just punishment for murder, but because it isn't always possible to prove someone guilty I think it is better not to allow it. A foetus has not committed murder, note!

An ectopic pregnancy kills the mother. Would you say abortion is justified in that case? What about the general case where a pregnancy endangers the mother's life?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Beings that, logically, do not exist can do anything you choose.

I'd like to discuss this with you, perhaps on another thread?

[Outrider]

No - abortion is deliberate killing by a human.

So is pretty much any livestock farm; unfortunately that's an overly simplistic take on the situation. If abortion were that simple there wouldn't be a debate to be had; this is a nuanced topic, sweeping declarations probably aren't going to be much use here.

God alone has the right to take a life, or to authorize the deliberate taking of one.

So you're a vegatarian, then?

O.

[Spud]

An ectopic pregnancy kills the mother. Would you say abortion is justified in that case? What about the general case where a pregnancy endangers the mother's life?

I hadn't thought of that - yes I would agree with ending a pregnancy in that kind of circumstance, unless the baby can be delivered by cesarean.

[Spud]

So is pretty much any livestock farm; unfortunately that's an overly simplistic take on the situation. If abortion were that simple there wouldn't be a debate to be had; this is a nuanced topic, sweeping declarations probably aren't going to be much use here.

So you're a vegatarian, then?

O.

My latest thought about killing animals is that it's ok (for food) because they aren't made in God's image. Maybe there is more to it, but we've established so far that it's not ok to kill a human unless that human is going to commit manslaughter (eg ectopic pregnancy) or as punishment for murder. As I understand Genesis 6-10, that law was instituted by God to prevent a recurrence of the situation before the flood.

[Aruntraveller]

but we've established so far that it's not ok to kill a human unless that human is going to commit manslaughter (eg ectopic pregnancy) or as punishment for murder.

"We've" established no such thing, you have asserted it. It strikes me you need first of all to establish at what stage a human becomes a human. As far as I am aware there are vastly different claims about this. Your viewpoint is but only one of those opinions available.

Also, are you saying that abortion because of ectopic pregnancy is manslaughter, because that's how it reads to me?

[Spud]

"We've" established no such thing, you have asserted it. It strikes me you need first of all to establish at what stage a human becomes a human. As far as I am aware there are vastly different claims about this. Your viewpoint is but only one of those opinions available.

Also, are you saying that abortion because of ectopic pregnancy is manslaughter, because that's how it reads to me?

How can anyone claim that a human foetus or embryo is not human?
I meant the embryo would be committing manslaughter, so to speak, by killing it's mother. I don't think that is included in what God said was a justification for punishment by death (in Genesis 10). I suppose that at the point where it is removed, the ectopic embryo or foetus is technically killing her. Manslaughter was punishable by death unless the person who had unintentionally killed someone could make it to a city of refuge - the principle of life for life applied, so when the high priest died the person could go free. I guess on that basis the embryo would have to lose its life. Strange concept to be thinking about, but there you go.

[Dicky Underpants]

"We've" established no such thing, you have asserted it. It strikes me you need first of all to establish at what stage a human becomes a human. As far as I am aware there are vastly different claims about this. Your viewpoint is but only one of those opinions available.

From a believer's point of view, it comes down to  'ensoulment', doesn't it? Aquinas thought this occurred at the quickening, Pope John Paul II at the moment of conception (did he have his infallibility hat on?)
I don't suppose Spud is of the Catholic persuasion, so no doubt he has other ideas on the 'soul' (he might like to share them on my thread about the 'soul' in the theism and atheism section)

[Aruntraveller]

The supreme court has done what was expected of it by the Republican party.

[jeremyp]

The supreme court has done what was expected of it by the Republican party.

Yep, time to remove the question mark.

Ominously, some Republicans are also making noises about attacking other rights like contraception, sex education and equal marriage for all.

[Aruntraveller]

Ominously, some Republicans are also making noises about attacking other rights like contraception, sex education and equal marriage for all.

Yes. This was only ever the first on their wish list.

[Dicky Underpants]

The supreme court has done what was expected of it by the Republican party.

Hardly surprising after Trump appointed three 'pro-life' judges. Obviously a cynical vote-winning ploy (fortunately that  failed), but I doubt he'd have promoted any other measures beloved of the religious right, had they impinged on his sexual freedom in a too restrictive way.

[SteveH]

Well, I feel for decent, liberal-minded Americans, but as long as it's only over there, I'm not too bothered. It's not as if I'm an out-and-out pro-choicer myself, and it doesn't mean abortion will be banned throughout the SA tomorrow: it just means that states can decide for themselves, and some at least will keep sane laws.

[Aruntraveller]

The day had to come. Something PM Johnson has said that I agree with:

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-slams-us-abortion-ruling-as-a-big-step-backwards-us-supreme-court_uk_62b5a8efe4b0cdccbe6a4137?

[Aruntraveller]

Horrible cartoon but very close to the truth:

[Nearly Sane]

Good article

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-the-right-won-the-war-on-roe

[Outrider]

Yep, time to remove the question mark.

Ominously, some Republicans are also making noises about attacking other rights like contraception, sex education and equal marriage for all.

It's worse than the Republican politicians saying it, Judge Clarence Thomas sets up the potential for the court to review the right to contraception (Griswold vs Connecticut), to have male-on-male sex (Lawrence) and the right to equal marriage (Obergefell).

This is a Supreme Court judge, in his discourse on the opinion in a case, INVITING challenges to other established cases he doesn't like...

I'm disinclined to agree with the US Liberals calling for an expansion of the Supreme Court to nullify the current 'Republican' majority because it seems like it's a step that confirms the court is now an overtly political tool, but comments like this from Thomas bring into question whether or not that's a horse that's bolted forever.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Did my life suddenly come into existence after I was born?
I have no doubt that my life began at the moment of conception.
My life inside the womb was just as much a part of my life's journey as that outside the womb.
If my life was terminated inside the womb it would have the same consequence as a termination outside the womb.

When a woman has problems during pregnancy, she needs help and support which does not involve killing the child in her womb.  Abortion should only be used as a last resort to save the life of the mother.  Too often abortion is offered as if it is the only feasible solution.  The ruling of the supreme court in the USA should be a wake up call for us all to respect the sanctity of human life from conception to natural death.

[BeRational]

Did my life suddenly come into existence after I was born?
I have no doubt that my life began at the moment of conception.
My life inside the womb was just as much a part of my life's journey as that outside the womb.
If my life was terminated inside the womb it would have the same consequence as a termination outside the womb.

When a woman has problems during pregnancy, she needs help and support which does not involve killing the child in her womb.  Abortion should only be used as a last resort to save the life of the mother.  Too often abortion is offered as if it is the only feasible solution.  The ruling of the supreme court in the USA should be a wake up call for us all to respect the sanctity of human life from conception to natural death.

So you think women have the same rights as cattle?