The next PM...

[ProfessorDavey]

Drivel. You want to ignore Johnson because it doesn't help your 'argument'. Having 'experienced' people by your argument, gave us a serial incompetent liar.

Nope I actually haven't ignored Johnson, but when you are considering a trend that goes back 170 unbroken, trying to make a point about a single PM rather than the totality of PMs since 1852 is missing the point.

The point remains that for the past 170 years every PM has had the experience of one of the great offices of state or been leader of the opposition. In many cases more than one of these experiences. That is a simple statement of fact and the reason behind this is because it has always been considered that this level of experience is important.

I suspect this 170 year trend is about to be broken, perhaps as early as next week, when we end up with a PM whose greatest level of experience up to that point will be two months as Defence Secretary. Perhaps she'll be great, perhaps she'll be awful - but you've already alluded to one of the issues - we have no idea about her because she's never had any significant scrutiny on her which would have been the case had she held one of the great offices of state or been leader of the opposition.

[Nearly Sane]

Nope I actually haven't ignored Johnson, but when you are considering a trend that goes back 170 unbroken, trying to make a point about a single PM rather than the totality of PMs since 1852 is missing the point.

The point remains that for the past 170 years every PM has had the experience of one of the great offices of state or been leader of the opposition. In many cases more than one of these experiences. That is a simple statement of fact and the reason behind this is because it has always been considered that this level of experience is important.

I suspect this 170 year trend is about to be broken, perhaps as early as next week, when we end up with a PM whose greatest level of experience up to that point will be two months as Defence Secretary. Perhaps she'll be great, perhaps she'll be awful - but you've already alluded to one of the issues - we have no idea about her because she's never had any significant scrutiny on her which would have been the case had she held one of the great offices of state or been leader of the opposition.

Writing a long ad populum is just an ad populum. My issues with Mordaunt are about her lying. My issues with Johnson were that he was a liar. Him being FS just meant he was a liar who had been FS.

[SteveH]

(btw, it's the despatch, not dispatch, box).

Either, according to Wikipedia.

[Nearly Sane]

Either, according to Wikipedia.

Ah hoist by my own pedantry!

[ProfessorDavey]

Writing a long ad populum is just an ad populum.

An argument ad populum is an attempt to prove that a matter of opinion is objectively or factually correct on the basis that it is a popular opinion. It is, of course, a non-sense argument.

But there is no argument ad populum in my point - I was making a point of fact - it is a fact that every PM since 1852 has had prior experience in either one of the great offices of state or as (a successful) leader of the opposition. It matters not a jot whether that point is popular or not, because it isn't a matter or opinion, but a point of fact. There is no argument ad populum.

[SqueakyVoice]

I saw this elsewhere:

All eleven candidates are put on a flight to Rwanda.
...
First one back to No.10 wins.

I saw a trailer for a show with pairs of naked people being dropped off to race home. A race between Richie Sunak and Penny Dormant...

(No idea what channel or what the name was, btw) Putting this mob in naked, would end up being called the Naked Revulsion.

There's a Chinese curse, 'May you live in interesting times'  I don't think even Theresa May would like to live in these interesting times.

[Aruntraveller]

A related point that has occurred to me during this leadership election is that if this was under a first past the post system Mr. Sunak would already be PM.

So if an all-but-name transferrable vote system is good enough for Conservative MP's to elect their leader, why isn't it good enough at a general election?

[ProfessorDavey]

A related point that has occurred to me during this leadership election is that if this was under a first past the post system Mr. Sunak would already be PM.

So if an all-but-name transferrable vote system is good enough for Conservative MP's to elect their leader, why isn't it good enough at a general election?

One rule for them, another rule for us. At least they are consistent

[Aruntraveller]

I'm also loving Lord Frost's views on Penny Morduant:

Former Brexit Minister Lord Frost said Ms Mordaunt did not "master detail"

Well, I suppose he would personally know all about that particular quality.

[Udayana]

A related point that has occurred to me during this leadership election is that if this was under a first past the post system Mr. Sunak would already be PM.

So if an all-but-name transferrable vote system is good enough for Conservative MP's to elect their leader, why isn't it good enough at a general election?

They have a constitution.

[Aruntraveller]

So Penny M showing her credentials here in her support for homeopathy:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/15/penny-mordaunt-repeatedly-advocated-use-of-homeopathy-on-nhs?

It really would be nice to see a politician deal with facts based on evidence. It would also make me feel more confident in their abilities no matter their political persuasion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So Penny M showing her credentials here in her support for homeopathy:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/15/penny-mordaunt-repeatedly-advocated-use-of-homeopathy-on-nhs?

It really would be nice to see a politician deal with facts based on evidence. It would also make me feel more confident in their abilities no matter their political persuasion.

To be fair though they all want to put homeopathic amounts of money into the NHS.

[SteveH]

A related point that has occurred to me during this leadership election is that if this was under a first past the post system Mr. Sunak would already be PM.

So if an all-but-name transferrable vote system is good enough for Conservative MP's to elect their leader, why isn't it good enough at a general election?

I support single transferabe vote for general elections but I think the tories would reply that they are completely different types of election - you are not comparing like with like.

[Nearly Sane]

I support single transferabe vote for general elections but I think the tories would reply that they are completely different types of election - you are not comparing like with like.

why?

[Udayana]

I support single transferabe vote for general elections but I think the tories would reply that they are completely different types of election - you are not comparing like with like.

There are lots of different electoral systems, each with advantages and disadvantages. Any single system proposed by an individual or party is unlikely to gain majority support and guarantees no change - ie. continuing with fptp. I think we should put in place an independent, credible, body to examine the issue, with public discussion, reasoning and justification - then propose a system suitable for the UK.   

[SteveH]

why?

An election for a party leader and a general election are very different. One doesn't change the government, the other might. They could argue (I wouldn't) that fptp is best in general elections because it usually avoids hung parliaments (though that's a lot less true than it used to be).

[Aruntraveller]

The ever excellent John Crace on last night's debate:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/15/the-tory-leadership-debate-desperate-as-a-sales-pitch-worse-as-entertainment?

[SteveH]

Tory fuckwit who looks about 14, wants his constituency levelled and can't spell his own name (it's Brereton) backs Mordaunt.

[Nearly Sane]

The votes were as follows:

Rishi Sunak - 115 Penny Mordaunt - 82 Liz Truss - 71 Kemi Badenoch - 58 Tom Tugendhat - 31

[jeremyp]

Tory fuckwit who looks about 14, wants his constituency levelled and can't spell his own name (it's Brereton) backs Mordaunt.

Amazing how much difference the omission of the word "up" can make.

I think there needs to be a lower age limit for MPs, say about 30.

[SteveH]

Amazing how much difference the omission of the word "up" can make.

I think there needs to be a lower age limit for MPs, say about 30.

Not sure about that - there've been some great young Labour, Lib Dem and SNP MPs.
That little squirt, though, also doesn't even know the name of his own constituency: It's Stoke on Trent SOUTH.

[Nearly Sane]

The votes were as follows:

Rishi Sunak - 118
Penny Mordaunt - 92
Liz Truss - 86
Kemi Badenoch - 59

Suspect this means a Sunak v Truss run off

[Aruntraveller]

The votes were as follows:

Rishi Sunak - 118
Penny Mordaunt - 92
Liz Truss - 86
Kemi Badenoch - 59

Suspect this means a Sunak v Truss run off

And the Tory membership on current polling prefers Truss.

I do wonder which universe they are living in.

Not that I'm a fan of Sunak but he does at least seem to have a tentative grasp of reality.

[Nearly Sane]

And the Tory membership on current polling prefers Truss.

I do wonder which universe they are living in.

Not that I'm a fan of Sunak but he does at least seem to have a tentative grasp of reality.

I think the green card issue, combined with him having been the Chancellor while a cost of living crisis exploded, is a worry for many. Truss, while so often glaikit, doesn't have the baggage.

[Aruntraveller]

glaikit

Had to look that up!

She is indeed.