Author Topic: The next PM...  (Read 29171 times)

ekim

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #125 on: July 21, 2022, 03:23:18 PM »
Rishi Sunak's wife is richer than the Queen apparently ..... https://tinyurl.com/f78ynd94

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #126 on: July 21, 2022, 04:18:06 PM »
Rishi Sunak's wife is richer than the Queen apparently ..... https://tinyurl.com/f78ynd94
Indeed - from privileged upper middle class glob-trotting stock stretching back generations. Nice 'down-to-earth' touch, his 18th birthday present - shirt signed by the entire Southampton FC squad - that must have cost a pretty penny, or obtained through influence and connections.

But VG and others seem to have been sucked into his carefully curated and selective 'humble beginnings' narrative of his campaign launch video which starts:

"Let me tell you a story about a young woman, almost a lifetime ago, who boarded a plane ..."

Hmm - note the error - penniless migrants didn't migrate by plane in the 1960s - air travel remained prohibitively expensive - they migrated by ship. So she can hardly have been penniless as the narrative goes if she could have afforded a plane fare back in 1966.

Nearly Sane

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #127 on: July 21, 2022, 10:49:56 PM »
Ustinov died in 2004.

Imagine casting someone completely dead, totally inert, while maggots eat him and even rats turn their noses up at him.

He's not dead, he's resting


https://archive.ph/5xcB4

SteveH

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #128 on: July 21, 2022, 11:29:31 PM »
If I can play devil's advocate again...
There might be an advantage to having a PM who's as rich as Creosote; he'll be less likely to take back-handers or indulge in other forms of financial corruption, because he's already got more dosh than anyone can get through in a lifetime. (I still hope the Tory bastards take a beating at the next general election, though, and Labour win a landslide.)
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #129 on: July 22, 2022, 02:07:59 AM »
Indeed - from privileged upper middle class glob-trotting stock stretching back generations. Nice 'down-to-earth' touch, his 18th birthday present - shirt signed by the entire Southampton FC squad - that must have cost a pretty penny, or obtained through influence and connections.

But VG and others seem to have been sucked into his carefully curated and selective 'humble beginnings' narrative of his campaign launch video which starts:

"Let me tell you a story about a young woman, almost a lifetime ago, who boarded a plane ..."

Hmm - note the error - penniless migrants didn't migrate by plane in the 1960s - air travel remained prohibitively expensive - they migrated by ship. So she can hardly have been penniless as the narrative goes if she could have afforded a plane fare back in 1966.
PD - firstly, where does the video claim that Rishi Sunak's grandmother was penniless? The video just says she came to England, found a job and it took her almost a year to save enough money to pay for her husband and children (including Rishi Sunak's mother) to join her in England. The grandmother sounds like a hard-working, capable person. Articles in the media have reported that she sold her jewellery to fund her one-way ticket to Britain but I doubt she arrived penniless - she probably had at least a little bit of money left over from the sale of her jewellery even after she bought her plane ticket to help her pay rent and buy food. I know someone who sold her jewellery to be able to get on a plane with her family from Sri Lanka to Canada in the 1990s and they all became Canadian citizens.

Not really sure why stating any of the above is controversial. Seems perfectly feasible to me that someone like Rishi's grandmother could come to the UK, find a place to live and a job and save enough to pay for her husband and children to join her after about a year. My parents were able to pay for me, my brother, and my grandparents to join them in London after 2 years, and my parents were able to buy a 3 bedroom house in London after only 3 years in the UK. They arrived in the UK with no money, found jobs and saved. I know many others with a similar story. 

So Rishi's mother came to the UK a year later in 1967 at the age of 15. Rishi Sunak was born in 1980 so this is 13 years later. He would have turned 18 in 1998 so that is 31 years after his mother first arrived in England in her mid-teens. If my parents could buy a 4 bed detached house in London after 9 years of being in the UK after having arrived with no money, why would it be suprising that after being in England for 31 years, a pharmamcist with her own company and pharmacy (she probably owns the building and her Ltd co probably pays her rent to run the pharmacy business from that building) who is married to a GP could afford a football shirt signed by a professional football team for her son for his 18th birthday? How much would something like that cost? A few thousand pounds maybe? Or perhaps as the parents apparently seem to have done a lot for their local community, helping people, maybe they did not have to pay anything and they got it for free.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #130 on: July 22, 2022, 07:16:15 AM »
Quote
There might be an advantage to having a PM who's as rich as Creosote; he'll be less likely to take back-handers or indulge in other forms of financial corruption, because he's already got more dosh than anyone can get through in a lifetime.

I don't see wealth as any kind of prevention of corruption.

Surely in a not insignificant number of cases, it has acted as a guarantee of corruption.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #131 on: July 22, 2022, 08:27:01 AM »
PD - firstly, where does the video claim that Rishi Sunak's grandmother was penniless? The video just says she came to England, found a job and it took her almost a year to save enough money to pay for her husband and children (including Rishi Sunak's mother) to join her in England. The grandmother sounds like a hard-working, capable person. Articles in the media have reported that she sold her jewellery to fund her one-way ticket to Britain but I doubt she arrived penniless - she probably had at least a little bit of money left over from the sale of her jewellery even after she bought her plane ticket to help her pay rent and buy food. I know someone who sold her jewellery to be able to get on a plane with her family from Sri Lanka to Canada in the 1990s and they all became Canadian citizens.

Not really sure why stating any of the above is controversial. Seems perfectly feasible to me that someone like Rishi's grandmother could come to the UK, find a place to live and a job and save enough to pay for her husband and children to join her after about a year. My parents were able to pay for me, my brother, and my grandparents to join them in London after 2 years, and my parents were able to buy a 3 bedroom house in London after only 3 years in the UK. They arrived in the UK with no money, found jobs and saved. I know many others with a similar story. 

So Rishi's mother came to the UK a year later in 1967 at the age of 15. Rishi Sunak was born in 1980 so this is 13 years later. He would have turned 18 in 1998 so that is 31 years after his mother first arrived in England in her mid-teens. If my parents could buy a 4 bed detached house in London after 9 years of being in the UK after having arrived with no money, why would it be suprising that after being in England for 31 years, a pharmamcist with her own company and pharmacy (she probably owns the building and her Ltd co probably pays her rent to run the pharmacy business from that building) who is married to a GP could afford a football shirt signed by a professional football team for her son for his 18th birthday? How much would something like that cost? A few thousand pounds maybe? Or perhaps as the parents apparently seem to have done a lot for their local community, helping people, maybe they did not have to pay anything and they got it for free.
Oh dear you really do want to try to project Sunak onto your family and your family onto Sunak.

As Udayana appreciates, migrants aren't all the same - everyone's story is different, including yours and Sunak's.

So let's nail some of the points.

You knew someone who migrated by plane in the 90s - so what, air travel was commonplace in the 90s and routine long distance travel by sea had all but disappeared, so of course they travelled by plane. In the 60s air travel was prohibitively expensive to most people. So unless you had serious money you travelled by sea. So the notion that she flew suggests that she was either stupidly profligate with her money or that there was some considerable financial resource available to her. Note that there is hardly any mention of her husband (Sunak's grandfather) - he was an engineer (a prestigious and well paid job and presumably a graduate) and then became a tax official (also a prestigious and well paid job) who became senior enough to be awarded an MBE in the early 80s (note in those days gongs for civil servants were largely awarded due to seniority of position). So I suspect there was plenty of money around, sufficient to fund an advantageous move for an upper middle class couple from one country to another. As often happens, one member of the couple goes ahead to sort matters including housing and schooling, while the other remains behind with the children and then join later. Indeed my family did this in a much smaller distance (from Liverpool to London in the 70s).

And no mention of the other side of the family - the family described by Ashcroft as upper class and educated over generations - the grandfather who was deciding which separate continent to send some of his 6 children for their A-level and university education and which separate continent to send the rest of them (noting that in no case did the 6 kids study even in the continent where they lived). And the great grandfather who was in a very senior position within the Raj etc etc.

Yup - what we have his is an elite, educated, upper class and advantaged family over many generations who would, presumably have significant financial resource slopping around to be able even to contemplate sending kids overseas to study or to be sending kids to eye waveringly expensive private schools.

And on to the parents and Rishi  so through the 90s, apparently on just a NHS GP's salary and part time locum pharmacist money they were funding three kids through private school, at least one boarding at a school with fees of £46k in today's money. Also affording a 6 bedroom house and (new revelation) when Sunak graduated they gave him over £100k to buy a flat in Chelsea - at that time £100k was more than the average house was worth - think about it. Despite having been funding these kids through private school they had enough money slopping around have been able to buy a house more expensive than the average outright, with cash had they chosen. And all this before they bought and set up the chemist's company.

Nope Sunak isn't from humble beginnings (whether that makes it like you VG or not I cannot say) - he has come from a highly elite, advantaged, educated upper middle class background that extends back over generations. One that is internationalist in outlook, happy to relocate globally for a better life, safe in the knowledge that their education, and probably their networks and secure financial position, will see them very comfortably in their new countries. For generations they have sat near the top of the social tree and although they might find it a little tricky to rise towards the top as they move globally they are comfortable that their resources (education, financial, networks) will get them there in short time.

Oh and on the football shirt - if you are spending a few thousand pounds on a 18th birthday present (as you seem to idly dismiss it) that is yet another hall mark of privilege - most people don't have the funds to be able to spend a few thousand pounds on a birthday present, even a significant one. A few hundred pounds maybe, but a few thousand - nope. That you find that seemingly just normal suggests that perhaps your upbringing was somewhat more privileged than your are implying.

And on that final point - you haven't told us details of your private schooling - again noting Udayana's astute point that not all private schools are the same. Did you and you brother attend as day pupils or as boarders (Sunak was a boarder)? Did you get bursaries of scholarships (Sunak didn't)? Was you brother attending Harrow School as a boarder which had to be paid in full by your parents (this would be the equivalent)?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 09:20:33 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Aruntraveller

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #132 on: July 22, 2022, 09:09:29 AM »
....
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Udayana

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #133 on: July 22, 2022, 10:21:28 AM »
Last night's Ch4 news had a segment on Sunak's background:

https://www.channel4.com/news/rishi-sunak-inside-the-tory-leadership-candidates-fortune

Seems reasonably fair given that they want dramatic news items.

The facts, of fees equating to around £22,000 "in today's money" - about twice that of other good local public (ie. private) schools, accord with my recollections from around early 2000's.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 10:33:56 AM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Udayana

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #134 on: July 22, 2022, 10:39:33 AM »
Indeed - from privileged upper middle class glob-trotting stock stretching back generations.
...


But what evidence are you basing that on? 

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #135 on: July 22, 2022, 10:39:43 AM »
Last night's Ch4 news had a segment on Sunak's background:

https://www.channel4.com/news/rishi-sunak-inside-the-tory-leadership-candidates-fortune

Seems reasonably fair given that they are want dramatic news items.

The facts, of fees equating to around £22,000 "in today's money" about twice that of other good local public (ie. private) schools accord with my recollections from around early 2000's.
Suspect their suggestion of fees is an underestimate, given that fees are currently £46k (in today's money).

Yes I saw that too and this is where the new revelation that Sunak's parents had enough case sloshing around to be able to give Rishi an 'interest free loan' of £110k (more than the entire value of an average house in 2001) to allow him to buy a flat in Chelsea worth more then twice the value of an average home at the age of 21, fresh out of university.

Now I'm not denying this to be an extremely smart move from a financial perspective. But you can only do this sort of thing for your kids if you have serious amounts of disposable money around.

The channel 4 piece also has a little more of the cringeworthy interview when he was much younger when he made the comment a bout not knowing any working class people. He also has an astonishingly patronising bit where he talks about going into state schools and talking to kids about them being able to have the same aspirations as him. He says they can go to Oxford to and then indicates that they were amazed when he told them he went to Winchester College. The astonishingly lack of self-reflection is remarkable. The reason he could drift into Oxford was because he went to Winchester College and that is way, way beyond the means of the vast majority of people regardless of their abilities or aspirations. He seems not to recognise that he was provided with privilege and opportunity on a plate. Sure he took it, but those opportunities simply don't exist to ordinary folk whose parents cannot rustle up tens of thousand of pounds every year in school fees (for each child). Of course VG will conclude that of course they can as long as they give up drinking - but she is talking complete non-sense.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #136 on: July 22, 2022, 10:46:56 AM »
But what evidence are you basing that on?
Ashcroft's biography - the most comprehensive, that uses that exact term - upper middle class. And he also describes how their educational and professional credentials stretched back at least to Sunak's great grandfather (who had a highly prestigeous role in the Raj) and also the twice migrating nature, across three continents. This was a family that used their educational and professional credentials to seek out better opportunities even when they were a continent away. Now I'm not blaming them for that, but the very nature that they could rely on their graduate credentials (the vast majority of people at that time were not educated to university level) and their professional roles (engineers, civil servants, government officials, doctors etc) to open doors to them tells us they aren't an ordinary family (in demographic terms) but a multigenerational elite, educated, professional upper middle class family where opportunity exist that do not exist for most people. Great that they took those opportunities (good for them) but you can only take opportunities if they are available to you.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2022, 10:51:23 AM »
Oh dear you really do want to try to project Sunak onto your family and your family onto Sunak.

As Udayana appreciates, migrants are all the same - everyone's story is different, including yours and Sunak's.

So let's nail some of the points.

You knew someone who migrated by plane in the 90s - so what, air travel was commonplace in the 90s. In the 60s air travel was prohibitively expensive to most people. So unless you had serious money you travelled by sea. So the notion that she flew suggests that she was either stupidly profligate with her money or that there was some considerable financial resource available to her. Note that there is hardly any mention of her husband (Sunak's grandfather) - he was an engineer (a prestigious and well paid job and presumably a graduate) and then became a tax official (also a prestigious and well paid job) who became senior enough to be awarded an MBE in the early 80s (note in those days goes for civil servants was largely awarded due to seniority of position). So I suspect there was plenty of money around, sufficient to fund an advantageous move for an upper middle class couple from one country to another. As often happens, one member of the couple goes ahead to sort matters, while the other remains behind with the children and then join later. Indeed my family did this in a much smaller distance (from Liverpool to London in the 70s).

And no mention of the other side of the family - the family described by Ashcroft as upper class and educated over generations - the grandfather who was deciding which separate continent to send some of his 6 children for their A-level and university education and which separate continent to send the rest of them (noting that in no case did the 6 kids study even in the continent where they lived). And the great grandfather who was in a very senior position within the Raj etc etc.

Yup - what we have his is an educated, upper class and advantaged family over many generations who would, presumably have significant financial resource slopping around to be able even to contemplate sending kids overseas to study or to be sending kids to eye waveringly expensive private schools.

And on to the parents and Rishi  so through the 90s, apparently on just a NHS GP's salary they were funding three kids through private school, at least one boarding at a school with fees of £46k in today's money. Also affording a 6 bedroom house and (new revelation) when Sunak graduated they gave him over £100k to buy a flat in Chelsea - at that time £100k was more than the average house was worth - think about it. Despite having been funding these kids through private school they had enough money slopping around have been able to buy a house more expensive than the average outright, with cash had they chosen. And all this before they bought and set up the chemist's company.

Nope Sunak isn't from humble beginnings (whether that makes it like you VG or not I cannot say) - he has come from a highly advantaged, educated upper middle class background that extends back over generations. One that is internationalist in background, happy to relocate globally for a better life, safe in the knowledge that their educations, and probably their networks, will see them very comfortably in their new countries. For generations they have sat near the top of the social tree and although they might find it a little tricky to rise towards the top as they move they are comfortable that their resources (education, financial, networks) will get them there in short time.

Oh and on the football shirt - if you are spending a few thousand pounds on a 18th birthday present (as you seem to idly dismiss it) that is yet another hall mark of privilege - most people don't have the funds to be able to spend a few thousand pounds on a birthday present, even a significant one. A few hundred pounds maybe, but a few thousand - nope. That you find that seemingly just normal suggests that perhaps your upbringing was somewhat more privileged than your are implying.

And on that final point - you haven't told us details of your private schooling - again noting Udayana's astute point that not all private schools are the same. Did you and you brother attend as day pupils or as boarders (Sunak was a boarder)? Did you get bursaries of scholarships (Sunak didn't)? Was you brother attending Harrow School as a boarder which had to be paid in full by your parents (this would be the equivalent)?
Oh dear - all this waffle from you without answering the basic question I asked. Where in the video does it say Sunak's grandmother was penniless? Can you answer that question first since that seems to be what you have a bee in your bonnet about.

The only thing the video seems to say is that Sunak's grandmother came to England, found a job, and saved enough money to bring her husband and children over after a year- she seems a very capable woman to me. And not that different from many other immigrants who found a job and saved to pay for the rest of the family to join them. If the grandfather had a good job maybe he brought some savings too, though unless it was in GBP the exchange rate would have meant it was worth a lot less once converted.

If you are mistaken about that point about the video saying she was penniless, you don't have much credibility for the rest of your unevidenced assertions. I suggest you provide some links to your assertions so we can look into where else you might be mistaken.

For example, your assertion that in the 90s, only Sunak's father was bringing in any income to pay for private school. What is your evidence that his mother's pharmacy business was not doing well and bringing in income? Or that they did not use the equity in their house to fund fees or the money they loaned Rishi Sunak towards his first flat? Or if the pharmacy business was doing well because his mother was working long hours in it, his mother's Ltd could have loaned the money to Rishi Sunak. I assume he took out a mortgage to cover the rest of the purchase price. And as far as I can tell Sunak has not pretended that his parents did not work hard to fund these things or that he did not enjoy these privileges.

I am not sure why you seem to have a problem with people coming to the UK and working hard to earn money to pay for a private school education or to buy property?

The 2nd property - the 3 bedroom flat my parents bought in the 1990s near Kensington Olympia in London - it was bought in my name and my brother's name, with a mortgage. Buying your children property is just a thing Asian professionals spend their money on, rather than other stuff middle class people spend their money on. It doesn't negate our relatively modest upbringing in the 1970s and 1980s. Of course we weren't ever penniless - my parents worked and saved and owned a 3 bed semi in London after only being in the UK for 3 years, and having arrived in the UK in 1971 with pretty much nothing (£6 maybe) with my dad being a student for 1 of those years. 

Of course I transferred the Kensington Olympia flat ownership back to my parents in 2001 once they had paid off the mortgage on it. I got to live in it rent free for at least 6 or 7 years in the 1990s before I moved out. I was unable to transfer it back to my parents earlier as they could not get a mortgage for a term longer than 10 years in their name, because of their age and because my mother had retired, so the interest rates would have been really high for such a mortgage, so we had to wait until the mortgage was paid off to be able to change the ownership back to my parents. My parents wanted my brother and me to have their 2nd property but we wanted our parents to have it as we figured we could earn our own way and buy our own properties, given the privileges we had already been given - such as a private school education, a stable home life, a 4 bed detached house in the suburbs to grow up in etc. Plus if they were going to retire they would need a place to live and a source of income such as the rent from a 2nd property. Sure, this is a relatively privileged position for my parents to be in compared to others, but that's where hard work and sacrifice and saving money and luck can get you in Britain even if you arrive with nothing except brains and qualifications.

Presumably the Sunak children attended private schools from age 11 or did they go later? So possibly early 1990s onwards? And what were the fees of the private schools at the time they attended during the 90s - no point talking about the cost today, given all the articles about how over the past 25 years private school fees have risen by 550 per cent. But consumer prices in that time are up only 200 per cent. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-charts-that-shows-how-private-school-fees-have-exploded-a7023056.html

Regarding the football shirt - we don't know whether it cost anything at all yet. I was running a charity sports event and a young guy who coaches under-privileged youth football in East London said if I wanted to run an auction to raise funds he could get me a signed professional football team shirt from his contacts. He didn't know me at all but his brother-in-law knew me and the guy also drove all the way across London to coach football as part of my charity event, without ever having met me.

We ran an American Auction to raise funds at another charity event and someone (not wealthy) donated a cricket bat signed by the Sri Lankan cricket team. If you take being able to get these signed souvenirs as signs of privilege in terms of wealth, you are mistaken. It's just down to luck or being friendly and getting to know people.

My point has not been to project my story onto Sunak, but to show you that your apparent ignorance of the lives of immigrants based on your posts here, means that your assumptions about Sunak could be incorrect. If you have a link to evidence about how his parents funded their assets and expenses, feel free to post it. But until you do, your assumptions could be way off the mark.

For a start, I'm still waiting to find out how you came up with the assumption that Sunak's grandmother arrived in the UK penniless. If as has been reported by the media, she sold her jewellery to buy a plane ticket, then we can assume she had some money when she arrived. If she chose to travel to the UK by plane (as my parents did) yes we can assume she had a middle class life-style in Tanzania. My parents had a middle class lifestyle in Sri Lanka. My dad was working as an engineer and my mum was working as a doctor in Sri Lanka. There just wasn't much of a future for my dad in Sri Lanka, as the government increasingly adopted racist and socialist economic policies under the Sinhalese nationalist left-wing government of the time. It still does not change the fact that my parents started out life in the UK with hardly any money and managed to buy a house in London within 3 years.

And what year did Sunak's grandfather get an MBE? MBEs really aren't all that difficult to get - they give out loads these days and to people from all different walks of life. I don't know when he got his MBE or what the process was of getting it when he was given an MBE. My husband has one. But many of my children's friends from school live in far nicer homes than us, they drive newer cars than us, they buy their children far more stuff than we buy our children - tickets to festivals, clothes, new iphones etc. You can't tell much from an MBE.

Oh and just to add, my husband's great grandfather was knighted by the British ie he was a Sir, when it was Ceylon - before independence. So according to you that signifies generations of privileged upper-middle class lifestyles in Sri Lanka. That didn't mean anything for my husband's and his siblings' lifestyle when they came to the UK. When I met my husband in 1992, his lifestyle was on par with my parents' lifestyle in 1974. So maybe stop making so many assumptions without linking it to some kind of evidence if you want to be taken seriously.

ETA - I just made this edit PD
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 11:57:30 AM by Violent Gabriella »
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Udayana

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2022, 10:56:47 AM »
Worth noting that private school fee inflation has been well over general inflation:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-charts-that-shows-how-private-school-fees-have-exploded-a7023056.html?r=84631

(ah, just seen VG has already ref'd this article)

For interest, house prices (adjusted for inflation) over the last 50 years:
 https://www.allagents.co.uk/house-prices-adjusted/
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 11:27:30 AM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Udayana

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #139 on: July 22, 2022, 11:07:58 AM »
Ashcroft's biography - the most comprehensive, that uses that exact term - upper middle class.
...

I'll see if I can find a copy - but surely anything Ashcroft says has to be triple checked itself !
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Aruntraveller

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #140 on: July 22, 2022, 11:49:54 AM »
Delving into the background is all very interesting and relevant to a point, and I think a good job has been done all around at covering every angle!

But, shouldn't we concentrate on Sunak's actions in government and what he might have achieved and where he failed. I'm quite prepared to believe that millionaires might want to work for the general good of the country. I'm also quite prepared to believe that they might work for the general good of themselves and their friends.

So maybe judge them by their record now. To that end here is Sunaks voting record:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25428/rishi_sunak/richmond_%28yorks%29/votes

and Liz Truss's voting record:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24941/elizabeth_truss/south_west_norfolk/votes

All I can tell you from my pov is that they are both bastards going by their voting record. So if you have a vote you have a choice between a smooth, slimy bastard and a robotic, deranged bastard.

Good luck with that, SD.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Aruntraveller

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #141 on: July 22, 2022, 12:36:42 PM »
A perspective from a remain campaigner on one of the FB feeds I have:

"An air of sticky and suffocating unreality has pervaded British politics this week, quite as much as it has the weather. The ongoing contest to replace Boris Johnson seems completely detached from the realities of a country enduring a sharp lesson in what climate change is going to mean, still gripped by a pandemic that with “dangerous complacency” is treated as being over, suffering the misery of record NHS waiting lists, and facing multiple economic crises. And, as always, though no candidate to be Prime Minister can admit it, there is the ongoing, dragging undertow of Brexit, which has ripped up fifty years of economic and foreign policy strategy whilst its advocates are still unable to identify a viable alternative. Against this background, the leadership contest has come down to the absurdly narrow canvas of whether there should be tax cuts now or next year.
It’s beyond pitiful."

For the sake of my own equilibrium, I'd like to be able to disagree with that analysis, unfortunately, I can't.

I have more than a touch of the black dog hanging about me.

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Udayana

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #142 on: July 22, 2022, 12:48:09 PM »
...
The only thing the video seems to say is that Sunak's grandmother came to England, found a job, and saved enough money to bring her husband and children over after a year- she seems a very capable woman to me. And not that different from many other immigrants who found a job and saved to pay for the rest of the family to join them. If the grandfather had a good job maybe he brought some savings too, though unless it was in GBP the exchange rate would have meant it was worth a lot less once converted.
...


This business of who was or was not able to transfer their savings or wealth is quite interesting. It very much depends on exactly when the migration was and from which country.

Most Asian immigration from Africa was in the late 60's when people were being expelled from Uganada or Kenya - nearly all of them had their wealth taken from them before being forced out. Tanzania was different in that anti-Indian sentiment and associated migration started from around 1964 and many were able to take proceeds from selling businesses and/or their savings with them.

The early 60's also saw the take off of secret off-shore banking - outside of normal banking controls and tax management - and could also be used to avoid losses due to exchange rates or controls. It was certainly used by some people moving money out of South Africa and Rhodesia.   

The whole industry was boosted by banking de-regulation under Thatcher and by the latest Tory government, especially by Brexit. Both Sunak and Truss are promising to continue helping it thrive.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #143 on: July 22, 2022, 01:25:18 PM »
Delving into the background is all very interesting and relevant to a point, and I think a good job has been done all around at covering every angle!

But, shouldn't we concentrate on Sunak's actions in government and what he might have achieved and where he failed. I'm quite prepared to believe that millionaires might want to work for the general good of the country. I'm also quite prepared to believe that they might work for the general good of themselves and their friends.

So maybe judge them by their record now. To that end here is Sunaks voting record:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25428/rishi_sunak/richmond_%28yorks%29/votes

and Liz Truss's voting record:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24941/elizabeth_truss/south_west_norfolk/votes

All I can tell you from my pov is that they are both bastards going by their voting record. So if you have a vote you have a choice between a smooth, slimy bastard and a robotic, deranged bastard.

Good luck with that, SD.
Yes, I would agree with that assessment. The Tories certainly appear to be bastards when you look at the voting history and the Parliamentary debates on tax e.g. anti-avoidance legislation and HMRC powers and the issue of raising income tax thresholds or cutting CGT rates that seem to benefit the rich far more than the poor.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2016-04-13c.360.0#g411.0

Having said that I still have a visceral hatred for the culture wars and identity politics of the left that outweighs my hatred for the wealth inequality perpetuated by the right. I am no doubt morally wrong in that view and a bastard myself, but nevertheless I can no longer bring myself to vote Labour or Lib-Dem for that reason. The left's identity politics and bleating about white privilege appears to seek to make me a victim and I cannot support a party that denies me my own sense of agency - to me that stance erases my individuality, and I would rather be a bastard than a victim.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #144 on: July 22, 2022, 02:02:41 PM »


This business of who was or was not able to transfer their savings or wealth is quite interesting. It very much depends on exactly when the migration was and from which country.

Most Asian immigration from Africa was in the late 60's when people were being expelled from Uganada or Kenya - nearly all of them had their wealth taken from them before being forced out. Tanzania was different in that anti-Indian sentiment and associated migration started from around 1964 and many were able to take proceeds from selling businesses and/or their savings with them.

The early 60's also saw the take off of secret off-shore banking - outside of normal banking controls and tax management - and could also be used to avoid losses due to exchange rates or controls. It was certainly used by some people moving money out of South Africa and Rhodesia.   

The whole industry was boosted by banking de-regulation under Thatcher and by the latest Tory government, especially by Brexit. Both Sunak and Truss are promising to continue helping it thrive.
Interesting and would agree with you. Possibly Rishi Sunak has off-shore funds held in the name of a company or trust in tax havens and certainly has no problem with people using non-dom tax breaks to not pay tax on world-wide income. His parents may have off-shore funds held in the name of a company or trust in a tax haven.

Even if people are asked to reveal the name of the ultimate beneficial owners it seems relatively easy to not reveal them and just give the names of the shareholders ie the names of the owners according to the legal paperwork. The tax authorities don't seem to have the resources to look into every company and trust to drill down and follow the paper trail and work out who is really benefitting from the scheme or structure and who is making the decisions.

Plus, there are always loopholes in tax legislation and very clever people who can use them to their financial advantage, because governments often rely on the revenue generated by foreign investment to run the economy and pay for public spending and infrastructure projects, hence need to make their own country's economy appear advantageous to people with capital seeking a good return, in comparison to another country's economy.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #145 on: July 22, 2022, 02:17:10 PM »
Yes, I would agree with that assessment. The Tories certainly appear to be bastards when you look at the voting history and the Parliamentary debates on tax e.g. anti-avoidance legislation and HMRC powers and the issue of raising income tax thresholds or cutting CGT rates that seem to benefit the rich far more than the poor.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2016-04-13c.360.0#g411.0

Having said that I still have a visceral hatred for the culture wars and identity politics of the left that outweighs my hatred for the wealth inequality perpetuated by the right. I am no doubt morally wrong in that view and a bastard myself, but nevertheless I can no longer bring myself to vote Labour or Lib-Dem for that reason. The left's identity politics and bleating about white privilege appears to seek to make me a victim and I cannot support a party that denies me my own sense of agency - to me that stance erases my individuality, and I would rather be a bastard than a victim.
I might be tempted to vote for competent bastards who weren't corrupt but corrupt incompetent bastards are a step too far. Individuals might get my vote currently but no party is likely to in the foreseeable future.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #146 on: July 22, 2022, 02:33:40 PM »
I might be tempted to vote for competent bastards who weren't corrupt but corrupt incompetent bastards are a step too far. Individuals might get my vote currently but no party is likely to in the foreseeable future.
Yes - would agree with the Tories being corrupt, incompetent bastards.

In Sri Lanka, which has been run by a succession of corrupt incompetent bastards who don't even bother to hide their corruptness, we've come to the conclusion that most politicians are corrupt and self-serving unfortunately. They have just kicked out the current President and his brothers from power, and don't seem to have too many options on who to replace them with that isn't corrupt. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #147 on: July 22, 2022, 07:23:38 PM »
For example, your assertion that in the 90s, only Sunak's father was bringing in any income to pay for private school.
See my post:

"And on to the parents and Rishi  so through the 90s, apparently on just a NHS GP's salary and part time locum pharmacist money they were funding three kids through private school"

Ashcroft is clear that through the mid 90s Sunak's mother was only working part time as a locum pharmacist, as it offered flexibility and also allowed her to retain her credentials as a pharmacist.

What is your evidence that his mother's pharmacy business was not doing well and bringing in income? Or that they did not use the equity in their house to fund fees or the money they loaned Rishi Sunak towards his first flat? Or if the pharmacy business was doing well because his mother was working long hours in it, his mother's Ltd could have loaned the money to Rishi Sunak.
I can be 100% confident that the pharmacy business did not contribute to bringing in income to support Rishi through Winchester (which he left in 1998), nor through Oxford (he graduated in 2001) or toward the purchased of the Chelsea flat the year he graduated.

How can I be so confident? Because there wasn't a pharmacy business to be doing either well or badly. Sunak Pharmacy (later called Bassett Pharmacy) wasn't in existence until 2003 - 18th March 2003 to be precise. Companies House records are your friend when you want evidence rather than hand waving assertion.

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #148 on: July 22, 2022, 07:32:53 PM »
"An air of sticky and suffocating unreality has pervaded British politics this week, quite as much as it has the weather. The ongoing contest to replace Boris Johnson seems completely detached from the realities of a country enduring a sharp lesson in what climate change is going to mean, still gripped by a pandemic that with “dangerous complacency” is treated as being over, suffering the misery of record NHS waiting lists, and facing multiple economic crises. And, as always, though no candidate to be Prime Minister can admit it, there is the ongoing, dragging undertow of Brexit, which has ripped up fifty years of economic and foreign policy strategy whilst its advocates are still unable to identify a viable alternative. Against this background, the leadership contest has come down to the absurdly narrow canvas of whether there should be tax cuts now or next year.
It’s beyond pitiful."

This crystallises the whole thing for me. I don't care how rich the next PM is or how rich his wife is  - or her husband. I don't care if they were brought up in poverty or not or if their grandparents were. All of that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether they will make a good leader for this country.

What matters is that all the candidates are scrabbling to see see who can be the most reckless with our futures just so they can say they were PM for a bit. We do not need tax cuts. In fact we need tax increases, because, if nothing else, we have to pay for the pandemic. I want the whole lot of them to just fuck off and die so we can get a leader who is prepared to do the right things to save this country.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: The next PM...
« Reply #149 on: July 22, 2022, 07:48:23 PM »
I should add that while some/ many people would view self-serving tax planning as being corrupt, others would not. They genuinely believe that Parliament should sort the problem out by overhauling the tax system and making the rules clearer and enforceable rather than expecting people not to use available tax planning strategies. What is fair or morally right is subjective so it would be easier to correct the tax laws than to try to rely on the morality of individuals.

Maybe British society has acquired an appetite for the introduction of a wealth tax to try to redistribute the wealth more fairly according to what society deems fair at the time? I guess we'll find out at the next election as to whether the majority support the introduction of a wealth tax. Not sure whether the wealthy and business owners will leave for other countries with more attractive tax policies and if this will cause a drop in tax revenue for the Treasury if a wealth tax was introduced.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/09/labour-may-tax-wealth-more-heavily-to-fund-social-care-says-starmer

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi