Enid Blyton

[Udayana]

So it's a reasonable reading but obvious that it isn't? Sorry, don't understand that.

It could be a reasonable reading if you didn't know the context. After all these years we probably know Roses views on everything - so no need to focus in on possibly ambiguous phrasing that may imply some kind of unconscious bias.

 As the context is a discussion of Enid Blyton and her works and influence, we might be better off discussing whether Blyton herself was (or wasn't) racist, homophobic, sexist etc, given that (as per Sriram's link) many of her works are being rewritten to take out the use of ethnic and gender stereotypes.
 

[Nearly Sane]

It could be a reasonable reading if you didn't know the context. After all these years we probably know Roses views on everything - so no need to focus in on possibly ambiguous phrasing that may imply some kind of unconscious bias.

 As the context is a discussion of Enid Blyton and her works and influence, we might be better off discussing whether Blyton herself was (or wasn't) racist, homophobic, sexist etc, given that (as per Sriram's link) many of her works are being rewritten to take out the use of ethnic and gender stereotypes.
 

  Disagree. It's nice to know your opinion, and to note that you think that Roses may have unconscious homophobia. Are you saying that if that appears to be the case we should just ignore it?

As for the discussion of Blyton herself, that's happening but thanks for the false dichotomy.

[Udayana]

She was undoubtedly racist, sexist and snobbish, in a mild sort of way, but no more so than was normal in her day.

Can we infer whether she was racist, sexist, snobbish etc herself, rather than her writing in itself - which probably was written in the context of conventional stereotypes? After all, her personal life seems to have been rather unconventional.
 

[Nearly Sane]

Can we infer whether she was racist, sexist, snobbish etc herself, rather than her writing in itself - which probably was written in the context of conventional stereotypes? After all, her personal life seems to have been rather unconventional.

Does an unconventional personal life somehow imply you are not racist, sexist, snobbish?

[Udayana]

  Disagree. It's nice to know your opinion, and to note that you think that Roses may have unconscious homophobia. Are you saying that if that appears to be the case we should just ignore it?

Well, generally anyone can have an unconscious bias on on anything so, unless that is the issue in question, I wouldn't comment. 

As for the discussion of Blyton herself, that's happening but thanks for the false dichotomy.

Ah yes, I see you moved the topic along.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, generally anyone can have an unconscious bias on on anything so, unless that is the issue in question, I wouldn't comment. 
 Ah yes, I see you moved the topic along.

We approach things differently. If there appears to be a homophobic bias, unconscious or not, I don't see why you should give it a pass.

Say the post had said that Blyton had had many affairs, even an interracial one? You honestly want to give that a free pass?

[Udayana]

Does an unconventional personal life somehow imply you are not racist, sexist, snobbish?

Of-course not. Her writing was conventional (to my mind at least) - but she was unconventional. Her writing was racist but that does not mean that she herself held racist views - just as Tolkien was adamantly anti-racist but his books are full of racist tropes. 

[Nearly Sane]

Of-course not. Her writing was conventional (to my mind at least) - but she was unconventional. Her writing was racist but that does not mean that she herself held racist views - just as Tolkien was adamantly anti-racist but his books are full of racist tropes.

Then her unconventional life is irrelevant to whether she was racist, sexist, homophobic, so why mention it in the context?

[Udayana]

We approach things differently. If there appears to be a homophobic bias, unconscious or not, I don't see why you should give it a pass.

Say the post had said that Blyton had had many affairs, even an interracial one? You honestly want to give that a free pass?

hmm.. I don't agree that Blyton was "bad" as she had affairs (and Roses didn't say that exactly) so wouldn't take "even an interracial one" as implying that interracial affairs were "even worse" - rather than just reflecting how unconventional interracial affairs were at the time.
   

[Udayana]

Then her unconventional life is irrelevant to whether she was racist, sexist, homophobic, so why mention it in the context?

Only as racism, sexism homophobic were quite conventional attitudes when she was writing.

[Nearly Sane]

hmm.. I don't agree that Blyton was "bad" as she had affairs (and Roses didn't say that exactly) so wouldn't take "even an interracial one" as implying that interracial affairs were "even worse" - rather than just reflecting how unconventional interracial affairs were at the time.
 

'Didn't say that exactly' are mealy mouthed words when to quote what Roses said


'Appararently Blyton's personal life was far from good. She is reputed to have had a series of affairs when married'

And then adds

'and even a lesbian relationship. I feel sorry for her children.'


The entire post is about Blyton being 'far from good' and then feeling 'sorry for her children'. And in that context the 'even' portrays the lesbian relationship as worse. Given thT Roses has accepted it's badly phrased, and you've said it may indicative of unconscious bias, not really seeing what you are trying to argue.

[Nearly Sane]

Only as racism, sexism homophobic were quite conventional attitudes when she was writing.

So we are back at the implication that somehow an unconventional lifestyle is an argument that she didn't hold racist, sexist or homophobic views.

[Udayana]

So we are back at the implication that somehow an unconventional lifestyle is an argument that she didn't hold racist, sexist or homophobic views.

No, it is not an argument... Conventional views form a set of which racist, sexist, homophobic views are subsets. Logically, ~conventional does not imply ~sexist, ~racist and/or ~homophobic.

All I intended to say was that from "her writing was conventional" one can't assume that she herself was (or was not) racist, sexist and homophobic.
   

[Nearly Sane]

No, it is not an argument... Conventional views form a set of which racist, sexist, homophobic views are subsets. Logically, ~conventional does not imply ~sexist, ~racist and/or ~homophobic.

All I intended to say was that from "her writing was conventional" one can't assume that she herself was (or was not) racist, sexist and homophobic.
 

So her 'unconventional' life is entirely irrelevant to your position, so why mention it.

Are you also suggesting that her writing, if sexist, racist, and/or homophobic, is not in any sense evidence if she was? 

[SteveH]

Can we infer whether she was racist, sexist, snobbish etc herself, rather than her writing in itself - which probably was written in the context of conventional stereotypes? After all, her personal life seems to have been rather unconventional.

Hair-splitting.

[SteveH]

Does an unconventional personal life somehow imply you are not racist, sexist, snobbish?

It suggests (not "somehow") that you are less likely to be.

[Nearly Sane]

It suggests (not "somehow") that you are less likely to be.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

[Udayana]

'Didn't say that exactly' are mealy mouthed words when to quote what Roses said


'Appararently Blyton's personal life was far from good. She is reputed to have had a series of affairs when married'

And then adds

'and even a lesbian relationship. I feel sorry for her children.'

and wuestioning it when it The entire post is about Blyton being 'far from good' and then feeling 'sorry for her children'. And in that context the 'even' portrays the lesbian relationship as worse. Given thT Roses has accepted it's badly phrased, and you've said it may indicative of unconscious bias, not really seeing what you are trying to argue.

Not really sure myself : I think I object to people taking something that might mean something or other as actually meaning that thing.

I myself am full of racist, sexist and homophobic (and who knows what else) attitudes or biases but would quite like to know if these come from having read "The Magic Faraway Tree", or Biggles or whatever in my childhood.
 

[Nearly Sane]

Not really sure myself : I think I object to people taking something that might mean something or other as actually meaning that thing.

I myself am full of racist, sexist and homophobic (and who knows what else) attitudes or biases but would quite like to know if these come from having read "The Magic Faraway Tree", or Biggles or whatever in my childhood.

But you don't object to your own position that it was obvious that Roses did not mean my reading. Do you see the problem? 

[Udayana]

But you don't object to your own position that it was obvious that Roses did not mean my reading. Do you see the problem?

Having a conscious or unconscious attitude or bias does not mean that you support a particular view or action. For Roses, we already know her actual position from many previous posts.

[Nearly Sane]

Having a conscious or unconscious attitude or bias does not mean that you support a particular view or action. For Roses, we already know her actual position from many previous posts.

Surely having a concious bias means exactly you support a view? As to an unconscious one, isn't it reasonable to point that out?

[SteveH]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

Oh, fuck Hitchens, the pretentious twat.

[Udayana]

Surely having a concious bias means exactly you support a view? As to an unconscious one, isn't it reasonable to point that out?

No, quite difficult to deal with a bias without knowing it is present.

It is reasonable to point out an unconscious bias if it helps in dealing with a relevant issue, without starting a distracting, diversionary, argument. 

[SteveH]

No, quite difficult to deal with a bias without knowing it is present.

It is reasonable to point out an unconscious bias if it helps in dealing with a relevant issue, without starting a distracting, diversionary, argument.

Trouble is, an unconscious bias is difficult to impossible to prove or disprove, and is thus used by people with a political agenda to damn their opponents - see Israel's defenders' ad bloody nauseam accusations of subconscious antisemitism, when they run out of real arguments, which is often.

[Udayana]

Trouble is, an unconscious bias is difficult to impossible to prove or disprove, and is thus used by people with a political agenda to damn their opponents - see Israel's defenders' ad bloody nauseam accusations of subconscious antisemitism, when they run out of real arguments, which is often.

That's true. All you can validly do is suggest it to the person concerned, allowing them to consider it for themselves in their own time.