Science and spirituality

[Walt Zingmatilder]

All of these things are manifestations of human neurobiology are are eminently measurable by standard neurobiology techniques, e.g. MRI

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-you-tell-someones-emotional-state-from-an-mri/
https://www.technologynetworks.com/neuroscience/news/brain-imaging-reveals-why-some-people-are-more-creative-than-others-296433

Not only that but creativity (and a whole range of other emotions, beliefs, feelings etc) have a genetic link. So for creativity:

https://www.healthline.com/health/can-you-inherit-creativity-science-says-yes#Your-artistic-skills-might-be-as-heritable-as-your-eye-color

So what?

[Maeght]

So what?

Isn't that things such as beliefs, feelings, creativity etc being measurable using science?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Isn't that things such as beliefs, feelings, creativity etc being measurable using science?

They aren't measurable by science without leaving an explanatory gap.

For example when measuring Joy presumably that is in volts. How do you then get from volts to joy. What is creativity measured in? Or atheism for that matter?

[Maeght]

They aren't measurable by science without leaving an explanatory gap.

For example when measuring Joy presumably that is in volts. How do you then get from volts to joy. What is creativity measured in? Or atheism for that matter?

You can measure the brains activity when experiencing joy, being creative etc something you seemed to doubt possible. No idea where measuring atheism comes in - what brain response constitutes a lack of belief?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You can measure the brains activity when experiencing joy, being creative etc something you seemed to doubt possible. No idea where measuring atheism comes in - what brain response constitutes a lack of belief?

No it is possible but so what? You still have a huge explanatory gap between an electrical reading and the phenomenon of joy.

I don't know what brain responses happen in atheists but I'm sure they are different and since atheists are in the minority their brain responses could be said to be abnormal.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

From the Scientific American.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/askthebrains/

[Maeght]

No it is possible but so what? You still have a huge explanatory gap between an electrical reading and the phenomenon of joy.

I don't know what brain responses happen in atheists but I'm sure they are different and since atheists are in the minority their brain responses could be said to be abnormal.

You suggested it wasn't possible so good you are now accepting it is. What do you specifically mean by an explanatory gap? Someone who experiences joy shows a measurable brain response. What gap are you referring too?

I would accept that people with belief have a different brain response to some things than someone without a belief have. Most people have grown up in a culture of belief so I don't think this is surprising. It doesn't really tell us anything about whether the beliefs are true though, probably tells us more about how the brain works.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You suggested it wasn't possible so good you are now accepting it is. What do you specifically mean by an explanatory gap? Someone who experiences joy shows a measurable brain response. What gap are you referring too?

I would accept that people with belief have a different brain response to some things than someone without a belief have. Most people have grown up in a culture of belief so I don't think this is surprising. It doesn't really tell us anything about whether the beliefs are true though, probably tells us more about how the brain works.

I never said it wasn't possible I always thought it was possible to show Joy as a voltage. But yet again so what since
I am sure that sadness is measured in volts.

Your problem is how to distinguish between 4 millivolts of sadness and 4 millivolts of Joy?

I think the trouble here is many people think that neuroscience is a bit further on than it actually is. And that is a symptom of scientism.

[Sriram]

I am sure my message here can be measured on the computer somewhere in bits and bytes.....but that does not mean that the computer is writing the message..

[ProfessorDavey]

No it is possible but so what? You still have a huge explanatory gap between an electrical reading and the phenomenon of joy.

Not really - the article you posted mentions dopamine release, which is closely associated with feelings of joy and can be triggered by all sorts of things. Other similar chemical messages linked to similar feelings are endorphins, serotonin and oxytocin.

Sure we don't know everything, which is why scientists continue to study this extremely interesting area. But just because we don't know everything it is bonkers to conclude that science cannot explain the things that are currently unexplained. And more bonkers still to ascribe the things we don't understand yet to non-materialism, whether spiritualism or god. Classic god of the gaps non-sense.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not really - the article you posted mentions dopamine release, which is closely associated with feelings of joy and can be triggered by all sorts of things. Other similar chemical messages links to similar feelings are endorphins, serotonin and oxytocin.

Sure we don't know everything, which is why scientists continue to study this extremely interesting area. But just because we don't know everything it is bonkers to conclude that science cannot explain the things that are currently unexplained. And more bonkers still to ascribe the things we don't understand yet to non-materialism, whether spiritualism or god. Classic god of the gaps non-sense.

Yes and scientists must go on trying to elucidate any explanatory gaps. I have no problem with that.

What I think we do have a problem with is promissory scientism. The belief that science will elucidate everything if only etc.

As I have said the prospect of that not being the case terrifies some scientismatists far more than a completely material explanatory for consciousness would upset say, a theist.

[ProfessorDavey]

What I think we do have a problem with is promissory scientism. The belief that science will elucidate everything if only etc.

There is a difference between will and can.

Your problem Vlad is that you posit that there are things that cannot be explained by reference to material elements and science. Just because something hasn't been explained in those terms and by those methods doesn't mean is cannot theoretically be.

[ProfessorDavey]

As I have said the prospect of that not being the case terrifies some scientismatists far more than a completely material explanatory for consciousness would upset say, a theist.

Not really as the former wouldn't shake any faith or believe positions. Scientists are first and foremost pragmatists and perfectly willing to move to a new position if that is where the evidence lies - indeed we do it all the time.

By contrast were it to be (theoretically) demonstrated that there is nothing beyond the material that would shake the faith positions of the religious and theists to the core.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not really as the former wouldn't shake any faith or believe positions. Scientists are first and foremost pragmatists and perfectly willing to move to a new position if that is where the evidence lies - indeed we do it all the time.

By contrast were it to be (theoretically) demonstrated that there is nothing beyond the material that would shake the faith positions of the religious and theists to the core.

But science does not go beyond the material and will therefore never demonstrate an answer to that question.

[ProfessorDavey]

But science does not go beyond the material and will therefore never demonstrate an answer to that question.

I said scientists - you know people who do science, but for whom science is not some kind of faith position.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

By contrast were it to be (theoretically) demonstrated that there is nothing beyond the material that would shake the faith positions of the religious and theists to the core.

https://flex.flinders.edu.au/items/334c8e6b-e372-4e77-9ab5-8f8b44a0ea26/1/?.vi=file&attachment.uuid=208eb4d1-2f7e-4955-92f6-0682eb8ca0a6

On Christian materialism.

[jeremyp]

I never said it wasn't possible I always thought it was possible to show Joy as a voltage. But yet again so what since
I am sure that sadness is measured in volts.

What the hell are you wittering on about?

The volt is the SI unit of electrical potential. Why on Earth are you claiming that human emotions are the same as potential? You are talking utter nonsense.

Brain activity is not something you can measure in volts. It's all to do with neurones firing and the patterns in which they fire.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What the hell are you wittering on about?

The volt is the SI unit of electrical potential. Why on Earth are you claiming that human emotions are the same as potential? You are talking utter nonsense.

Brain activity is not something you can measure in volts. It's all to do with neurones firing and the patterns in which they fire.

We have to measure the electrical activity then people have to interpret those patterns and then what?

[Maeght]

We have to measure the electrical activity then people have to interpret those patterns and then what?

You can then conclude that certain brain activity is associated with joy, beliefs etc.

[Sriram]

You can then conclude that certain brain activity is associated with joy, beliefs etc.

Correlation does not mean causation.

[Maeght]

Correlation does not mean causation.

Didn't claim it did.

[jeremyp]

Correlation does not mean causation.

Something that you would do well to think about.

[Outrider]

Correlation does not mean causation.

No, but 'correlation does not equal causation' does not therefore mean that every notion put forward as an alternative has equal merit with what can be shown to strongly correlate.

O.

[Outrider]

Regarding spirituality and the national curriculum

http://www.educationengland.org.uk/documents/ncc1993/smdev.html

From the paper:

"...the steps to spiritual development might include:
- recognising the existence of others as independent from oneself;
- becoming aware of and reflecting on experience;
- questioning and exploring the meaning of experience;
- understanding and evaluating a range of possible responses and interpretations;
- developing personal views and insights;
- applying the insights gained with increasing degrees of perception to one's own life."

Sounds like a synonym for 'philosophy' to me, in that usage.

O.

[Sriram]

No, but 'correlation does not equal causation' does not therefore mean that every notion put forward as an alternative has equal merit with what can be shown to strongly correlate.

O.

Our experiences are correlated with changes in brain chemistry does not mean that the brain causes human experiences.