Author Topic: Science and spirituality  (Read 46794 times)

Outrider

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #150 on: October 27, 2022, 02:16:51 PM »
This kind of 'Yes it is'....'No it isn't'...arguments could go on forever.

Yes, it could. Science, therefore, proceeds from a point of only accepting that which can be measured, accurately predicted, and then checked by the general consensus against the prediction. That gives the proceedings of science if not an objective validation then at the very least a validation that attempts to eliminate individual subjectivity so far as is possible.

If you want your 'yes it is' to stand up against science's 'no it isn't' then you need something more than just the claim, you need a mechanism by which your claims can be validated.

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I am of the view that our existing knowledge of evolution, chemical reactions etc. is only meant to explain mechanisms. They don't explain causes.

You'd need to justify the claim that there is some 'cause' at the base of all this that is not itself an effect of a prior cause. You are assuming that there is an 'intent' some 'purpose' being imposed on all this from outside somewhere, but you have not offered any justification for that beyond your own dissatisfaction with the other explanations.

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Like explaining the running of a car through its petrol, pistons, wheels etc....without mentioning its driver. It is just not good enough and misses crucial elements of the process.

Except that a car will run quite happily without a driver; you can build - and indeed we have built - vehicles which navigate themselves, which propel themselves and determine their own course.

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We have enough hints from scientific theories themselves  (see OP) to form hypotheses about probable causes.

Except that we don't - you have a collection of fringe areas of science into which you're trying to replace the genuine 'we don't know that extent yet' with 'therefore woo'.

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That is my point.

That's not a point, it's a fallacy.

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You can try this also... https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/beyond-science/

That religion persists is not necessarily testament to religion having any correct answers, but could equally be the product of religion's tendency to offer answers that are liked rather than answers that are valid. Your point also fails to address the massive disparity in retention of significant religious belief between developing and developed nations; your presumption is that because some places have technologically developed religion should have died out across the world.

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Failure of Science

Most people are significantly disappointed with science? Really? On what are you basing that?

I'm not sure I'd accept that many people thought that science was going to 'easily' explain everything. Science has not 'failed to integrate' claims of 'why we are here', because so far there is no basis to think there is a reason for science to investigate. We are here, science has offered the outline of a basis by which this came to pass - with, admittedly, some gaps. In that explanation there is no requirement for a 'purpose', no need for a 'reason'.

Science is, though, despite your claim, starting to address the basis for things like aspirations and morality.

And as to the idea that science can't give an easy to understand explanation for everything - why would you presume that there is one?

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It is like blind men who have never heard of an elephant, touching an elephant in different spots and putting their individual  ideas together to get a picture of the whole. They end up with a picture of a tree with a snake hanging on  it and a boulder next to it.  Hardly a meaningful picture!

But still a better explanation than 'there's a noncorporeal sentience manifesting here, but you can't see or hear it, it has no discernible effect on the elephant, but you have to accept that it's real because I'm not happy with your level of detail'.

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There is a vacuum.

No, there's space around the edges of current science because science isn't finished yet. What you do is not 'give up' on science because it hasn't produced a complete picture in 200 years, you keep doing science because it continues to be our best methodology. If you have another methodology, bring it along, but bring it alongside the incredibly successful scientific method.

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Secular spirituality is the obvious answer to fill this void.

Arguably, yes, it's superficially suitable, but it tends to suffer from the same fundamental problems as the religions that came before it - there's no validity to the claims, there's no justification, there's just 'this makes me fell nice'.

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And unfortunately, due to the authority yielded (sic.) by science over the last few centuries, mainstream scientists still tend to have significant influence over society.

Unfortunately? Because of that scientific influence we have improvements in medicine, communication, transport, food production, hygiene and a wealth of other areas. That science, and the findings of science, have crowded out the more overt influences of religion in at least some areas of the world is to be lauded, not derided.

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Evolution involves qualities such as a need to survive, need to replicate & procreate, need to protect ones progeny, rise of complexity and fitness.

No, evolution doesn't involve a 'need' to survive, it requires an ability to survive, and then selects for that ability.

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Evolution is usually ‘explained’ through random genetic variations and Natural Selection. Natural Selection is a ‘catch all’ term that doesn’t really explain anything at all.

All I can say is that you've manifestly failed to understand natural selection.

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Any property that we observe in inorganic or organic compounds that cannot be explained through a direct understanding of its constituent parts, is termed its ‘Emergent Property’.  It is just a label.

Not that I accept the claim, but for argument's sake let's accept this; how does this differ from 'god did it' or 'spirit' or 'magic'. These aren't explanations, these are claims to some unchallengable, uninterrogatable 'other' to close down investigation; they are then appropriated by gatekeepers who make the 'answer' sacred and sacrosanct, and the veneration of ignorance becomes shackle holding humanity to the unknowing, unquestioning past.

And the rest appears a rehash of what I already criticised at the start of the thread. You're not bringing anything to the table, you're just claiming that science is somehow not enough, asserting without a basis that your claims are of something somehow beyond science's capacity because 'spirit' and then dribbling woo all over everything. You have no methodology, you have no basis for your claims, and you have a limited understanding of the science that you're criticising.

As a basis, just as a start point: you keep saying that there is something about the human condition that is 'beyond science'. Given that anything which manifests an effect in the physical world in which we operate can be investigated with the scientific method, what exactly is it about humanity that you think is beyond science?

O.


« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 10:18:27 AM by Outrider »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #151 on: October 27, 2022, 04:52:02 PM »
....  there is exceptionally good evidence to indicate a causal link as these kinds of feelings can be reproduced artificially by mimicking the release of chemical factors such as dopamine, endorphins and serotonin.
I agree that specific chemical activity in the human brain can be associated with these types of feelings.  But the chemical activity alone does not fully define an experience such as joy.   The chemical activity needs to be perceived by whatever comprises our conscious awareness in order to be translated into what we experience in our mind.  For example, the chemical composition of a word printed on paper has no meaning until is is perceived, just as the chemical activity in the brain has no meaning until is is perceived by our conscious awareness.

So what is conscious awareness and how does it work in scientific terms?  The often used phrase "emergent property" offers no scientific explanation.  In scientific terms, nothing emerges from material reactions other than more material reactions.  We cannot define conscious awareness.  We cannot reproduce it outside the human brain.  If conscious awareness comprises more than mere chemical activity, trying to define it in scientific terms will never be possible.  You cannot use science to detect what is beyond a scientific definition.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #152 on: October 28, 2022, 10:42:59 AM »
I agree that specific chemical activity in the human brain can be associated with these types of feelings.
Glad you agree. 

But the chemical activity alone does not fully define an experience such as joy.
But 'joy' is simply how we describe the manifestation of those complex chemical and electrical activities within our neurophysiology.   

The chemical activity needs to be perceived by whatever comprises our conscious awareness in order to be translated into what we experience in our mind.
Indeed it does, but that involves further chemical and electrical activities within our brains. Our conscious awareness (similar to joy) is the way we describe the manifestation of those complex chemical and electrical activities within our neurophysiology.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #153 on: October 28, 2022, 11:11:44 AM »
No, evolution doesn't involve a 'need' to survive, it requires an ability to survive, and then selects for that ability.

All I can say is that you've manifestly failed to understand natural selection.
Absolutely correct.

A bacterium has no need to survive, but if it has trait that improve survival and are heritable then those traits will become more prevalent in the next generation of bacteria.

But of course 'survival instinct' can also be a trait that may arise in much more complex organisms. And clearly were that to arise it is pretty easy to see how that might confer survival advantage over other members of that species that might not have that trait. And if it is heritable then we expect survival instinct to be selected for under classical evolution by natural selection.

But the point is that evolution drives the persistence of survival instinct, not the need to survive driving evolution.

jeremyp

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #154 on: October 28, 2022, 11:55:33 AM »
Really poor analogy as a car remains a car whether or not there is a driver sitting in it. And of course there are autonomous cars that require no driver. A driver is not a necessary element for a car to function.

And humans and other living species aren't like cars. Cars are top-down designed, living species are bottom-up evolved.

Also the driver is a physical object that we know exists.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #155 on: October 28, 2022, 10:32:46 PM »
Glad you agree. 
But 'joy' is simply how we describe the manifestation of those complex chemical and electrical activities within our neurophysiology.   

This is a bad attempt at trying to avoid the explanatory gap. In fact, it looks like a horror mash up of reductionism and 'Bob's your uncle' thinking.

You are shortchanged everybody.

Alan Burns

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2022, 10:58:53 PM »
Our conscious awareness (similar to joy) is the way we describe the manifestation of those complex chemical and electrical activities within our neurophysiology.
Surely our conscious awareness is more than a mere description of complex electro chemical activity.
Science has yet to achieve any feasible explanation for how many discrete material reactions can manifest into a single entity of conscious awareness.  As I said in my previous post - using the phrase "emergent property" is just a meaningless label with no definition of what conscious awareness is or how it works.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #157 on: October 29, 2022, 05:59:41 AM »
This is a bad attempt at trying to avoid the explanatory gap. In fact, it looks like a horror mash up of reductionism and 'Bob's your uncle' thinking.

You are shortchanged everybody.

Why? Please explain based on things we know.

Maeght

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #158 on: October 29, 2022, 06:02:39 AM »
Surely our conscious awareness is more than a mere description of complex electro chemical activity.
Science has yet to achieve any feasible explanation for how many discrete material reactions can manifest into a single entity of conscious awareness.  As I said in my previous post - using the phrase "emergent property" is just a meaningless label with no definition of what conscious awareness is or how it works.

A single entity? What do you mean by that please? You have said we don't understand consciousness and how it works, which is fine, but then say surely it is more than complex electro chemical activity. How do you know hat if we/you don't understand how it works?

Sriram

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #159 on: October 29, 2022, 06:06:40 AM »
Absolutely correct.

A bacterium has no need to survive, but if it has trait that improve survival and are heritable then those traits will become more prevalent in the next generation of bacteria.

But of course 'survival instinct' can also be a trait that may arise in much more complex organisms. And clearly were that to arise it is pretty easy to see how that might confer survival advantage over other members of that species that might not have that trait. And if it is heritable then we expect survival instinct to be selected for under classical evolution by natural selection.

But the point is that evolution drives the persistence of survival instinct, not the need to survive driving evolution.

Any organism that avoids death has a survival instinct or a need to survive.  Survival is meant for reproduction which is another need or instinct that is inherent in organisms.  These needs do not arise out of evolution, they are the reason why evolution happens.

Secondly, chemical reactions do not explain Life. Chemical reactions happen around a core which is the Self or the Subject. It is the Subject that is the issue here and not the chemical reactions.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #160 on: October 29, 2022, 06:57:13 AM »
Why? Please explain based on things we know.
No one has yet demonstrated the causal and explanatory chain between what is measurable and the experience of Joy. So Davey's statementbis merely a sketchy explanation of a hey presto nature.
The word 'just' tips that off that he wants to explain the experience away by reducing this to physical, observable components.

This is not a good thing.


torridon

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #161 on: October 29, 2022, 09:12:34 AM »
Any organism that avoids death has a survival instinct or a need to survive.  Survival is meant for reproduction which is another need or instinct that is inherent in organisms.  These needs do not arise out of evolution, they are the reason why evolution happens.

Secondly, chemical reactions do not explain Life. Chemical reactions happen around a core which is the Self or the Subject. It is the Subject that is the issue here and not the chemical reactions.

Life is chemical reactions.  Life is high end biochemistry in action

torridon

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2022, 09:18:38 AM »
Surely our conscious awareness is more than a mere description of complex electro chemical activity.
Science has yet to achieve any feasible explanation for how many discrete material reactions can manifest into a single entity of conscious awareness.  As I said in my previous post - using the phrase "emergent property" is just a meaningless label with no definition of what conscious awareness is or how it works.

The evidence from neural correlates puts beyond reasonable doubt that subjective experience is the same thing as the neural activity, just the aspect is different.  The fact that we have not nailed down every detail is a poor excuse to indulging the magical thinking of earlier times.

Sriram

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2022, 09:21:05 AM »
Life is chemical reactions.  Life is high end biochemistry in action


Chemical reactions are a part of the process.....the physical component.  Whatever triggers chemical reactions....that is Life.

Alan Burns

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2022, 09:48:32 AM »
A single entity? What do you mean by that please?
You are a single entity of conscious awareness.
An entity which can't be defined or artificially reproduced in any material form.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #165 on: October 29, 2022, 10:11:45 AM »

Chemical reactions are a part of the process.....the physical component.  Whatever triggers chemical reactions....that is Life.

No evidence for that though.  it's just irrational magical thinking with no basis in reason or evidence.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #166 on: October 29, 2022, 10:14:48 AM »
Any organism that avoids death has a survival instinct or a need to survive.
Absolute non-sense. That something has the ability to survive, i.e. is self sustaining, doesn't mean it has a survival instinct, nor a need to survive. That required intent, desire, decision etc and of course a bacterium has none of those as its physiology is far too simple. Survival instinct or a need to survive are much higher level elements within evolution than ability to survive. It is the ability to survive that drives evolution where it is based on heritable traits that confer a better ability to survive and pass on those traits to the next generation.

This process has been going on for billions of years and driven by ability to survive and continues today. Only much more recently has a survival instinct or a need to survive evolved in a tiny proportion of the species on earth and, of course, if that is a hereditable trait it is likely to be selected for in subsequent generations assuming that the survival instinct or a need to survive actually produced a better ability to survive and reproduce.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #167 on: October 29, 2022, 10:17:53 AM »
Chemical reactions are a part of the process.....the physical component.  Whatever triggers chemical reactions....that is Life.
Again, non-sense. You have it entirely the wrong way around.

We have zero evidence that life exists or can exist outside or beyond those self-sustaining chemical processes. That is what life is - the name we humans give to an entity that includes a range of processes imbuing the ability to be self sustaining with only simply inputs, such as water, oxygen and nutrients.

So life doesn't trigger the key chemical processes - the combination of those key chemical process triggers and defines life.

Alan Burns

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #168 on: October 29, 2022, 12:45:58 PM »
The evidence from neural correlates puts beyond reasonable doubt that subjective experience is the same thing as the neural activity, just the aspect is different.
Correlation can't be used to define causation.
Not sure what you mean by "aspect" in this context.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #169 on: October 29, 2022, 01:15:58 PM »
Correlation can't be used to define causation.
Not sure what you mean by "aspect" in this context.

Everything has a subjective aspect (how it appears to itself) and an objective aspect (how that thing appears to a third party). 

Experience is the subjective aspect of neural activity, ie what it feels like to be those neurons firing.  'Neural activity' is how the same thing is described from a third person point of view, eg that of the neuroscientist studying a patient's brain activity.

jeremyp

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #170 on: October 29, 2022, 01:24:34 PM »
Surely our conscious awareness is more than a mere description of complex electro chemical activity.
Is it? Can you explain why, with evidence?

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Science has yet to achieve any feasible explanation for how many discrete material reactions can manifest into a single entity of conscious awareness.
Science hasn't explained everything. Oh no! that means there must be a god and other hocus pocus.

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As I said in my previous post - using the phrase "emergent property" is just a meaningless label with no definition of what conscious awareness is or how it works.
No it isn't.
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jeremyp

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #171 on: October 29, 2022, 01:26:42 PM »
You are a single entity of conscious awareness.
An entity which can't be defined or artificially reproduced in any material form.

Humans reproduce all the time. We're famous for it.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #172 on: October 29, 2022, 01:46:46 PM »
Correlation can't be used to define causation.
True, but nor does it mean there isn't causation. And therefore the best way forward is to look for evidence of causation. And, of course, there is plenty. Most notably that the neurological effects can be mimicked or altered through modification of the chemical or electrical pathways that are associated with those effects. This is the classical manner by which scientists attempt to unpick causation from correlation - change one (or more) things and see whether something else also alters. If it does it provides evidence that the second thing is caused by the first. You also, of course, need to do all sorts of other studies, e.g. doing it in reverse.

And not only have these types of study provided very good evidence of causation, we actually use this knowledge therapeutically to treat a range of phycological disorders. If there were no causation, then these pharmacological interventions wouldn't work.

Maeght

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #173 on: October 29, 2022, 05:42:26 PM »
You are a single entity of conscious awareness.
An entity which can't be defined or artificially reproduced in any material form.

We know we are entities with conscious awareness.

Maeght

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Re: Science and spirituality
« Reply #174 on: October 29, 2022, 05:44:03 PM »
No one has yet demonstrated the causal and explanatory chain between what is measurable and the experience of Joy. So Davey's statementbis merely a sketchy explanation of a hey presto nature.
The word 'just' tips that off that he wants to explain the experience away by reducing this to physical, observable components.

This is not a good thing.

We know there is a physical response to external stimuli which we recognise as joy. What is missing in that explanation?