Science and spirituality

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not really - in the UK it is difficult to assess the impact of societal religious setting as that will largely be the same for everyone, so there is no easy 'control' group to compare. There will be very rare examples, but these will largely be ultra-religious communities that largely cut themselves off from broader society.

That's why studies have focussed on the upbringing of children within a household. In other words is that household religious or non-religious and whether there is evidence of an active decision to bring up a child within a specific religion, which would be layered on top of the broader societal 'mood music'.

So if you were a child in the UK growing up in the 60s and 70s you couldn't escape the christian mood music and no doubt at school (faith or non faith) you'd be regularly singing hymns, saying christian prayers etc etc. Where the distinction would lie would be whether your parents went up and beyond that societal mood music. For example by talking you to church (most kids in the 60s and 70s didn't go to church regularly) enrolled your child in Sunday School (most kids in the 60s and 70s didn't go to Sunday School) or perhaps chose a faith school with a specific mission to bring children up in a specific religion (most kids in the 60s and 70s didn't go to a faith school).

So in my case, yes there was the mood music, my non faith schooling included a heavy dollop of christian practice. But beyond that my parents didn't add an overlay of religion, nor were they themselves overtly religious. There were some tensions and distinctions with earlier generations, so I am now aware (I wasn't then) that there was discussion between my father's parents (who were quite domineering) and my father as to why the kids weren't going to church/Sunday School. And very occasionally we were required to attend church when visiting the grandparents. But this was pretty clearly a visiting 'obligation' as it didn't reflect what happened week in, week out in my actual household.

I think the thing is you cannot go beyond the concept of cultural religion but then again that supposes that we are what our culture is and that is clearly an oversimplification. My parents never added an overlay of religion nor were they themselves overtly religious...but you say they were, and of course you have a fat academic salary and an ology to say I know nothing of my own upbringing...and that I think is where your pleadings probably begin to look over the top.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Theophany stories occur in many religious traditions…

In ancient Greece Semele was enculturated to the Greek gods, and had an episode she ascribed to an encounter with Zeus.

In the Hindu faith people enculturated to the Hindu avatars have episodes they ascribe to encounters with Vishnu, Krishna and Rama.
   

So what you are saying is Vishnu is up there looking down down on me saying ''You is rejecting me Vlad coz I is Blue''? Don't be fucking ridiculous.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Theophany stories occur in many religious traditions…

In ancient Greece Semele was enculturated to the Greek gods, and had an episode she ascribed to an encounter with Zeus.

I'm not arguing that she didn't. Would she have argued that he lived on Mount Olympus considering you can actually take a hike up it?

In the Hindu faith people enculturated to the Hindu avatars have episodes they ascribe to encounters with Vishnu, Krishna and Rama.

But are they historical figures?

In various tribal theisms people enculturated to spirit animals have episodes they ascribe to encounters with those animals.

Animals are not people, cannot represent people and christianity had moved from the sacrifice of any animal to the sacrifice of the son of God. 

Vlad was enculturated to the Christian faith and had an episode he ascribes to an encounter with the Christian man/god.

Cultural religion isn't personal religion. I could have been a unitarian. That sounds quite english.

[ProfessorDavey]

My parents never added an overlay of religion ...

Yes - they did as they, at the very least, supported you going to church, to Sunday School, to faith schools. And as parents tend to dictate those kinds of things I imagine it was more than a passive acquiescence on their parent but an active decision to overlay those additional religious elements in your childhood over the general christian societal mood music.

Parents who aren't bringing their children up as christian tend not to send them (or take them) to church nor send them to Sunday School. I accept that schooling can be a little different in terms of decision making, but going to church and Sunday School are completely discretionary activities, with most people choosing not to send their kids to them.

[ProfessorDavey]

... nor were they themselves overtly religious...

That always depends on your perspective.

From the perspective of a completely non religious upbringing parents choosing to take their child to church/Sunday school seems to be an indication of significant religiosity on their part, at the very least desired religiosity for their child.

Sure if you are someone who attends church every day and whose whole life completely revolves around religion, occasional church-goers might not seem overly religious. But you have to put it in a broader context - if 80-90% of people never attend church then simply attending church puts you in the 20% most religious (using attendance as a measure). And that is the case here - even in the 60s and 70s church going, sunday school attendance and faith school attendance were minority persuits, largely restricted to the religious.

[ProfessorDavey]

Vlad was enculturated to the Christian faith and had an episode he ascribes to an encounter with the Christian man/god.

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing, and ‘twas ever thus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias   

Indeed - and I'd bet my bottom dollar that had Vlad been born in Turkey, been brought up a muslim, the same experience would have led him to 'convert' or rather 'revert' to islam.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That always depends on your perspective.

No, apparently it depends on yours.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Indeed - and I'd bet my bottom dollar that had Vlad been born in Turkey, been brought up a muslim,

Careful now, You are introducing a more superior methodology to the one you've been using.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Indeed - and I'd bet my bottom dollar that had Vlad been born in Turkey, been brought up a muslim, the same experience would have led him to 'convert' or rather 'revert' to islam.

And what would you have been?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

So what you are saying is Vishnu is up there looking down down on me saying ''You is rejecting me Vlad coz I is Blue''? Don't be fucking ridiculous.

Your bizarre straw man bears no relation at all to anything I said. I merely explained to you that your “encounter” with a supposed deity is likely to be every bit as much confirmation bias as were the “encounters” with the supposed deities of peoples from different faith traditions. No amount of your circular reasoning, special pleading etc changes that.     

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Your bizarre straw man bears no relation at all to anything I said. I merely explained to you that your “encounter” with a supposed deity is likely to be every bit as much confirmation bias as were the “encounters” with the supposed deities of peoples from different faith traditions. No amount of your circular reasoning, special pleading etc changes that.   

I think it was Spike Milligan who declared when interviewed by Gerald Priestland for BBC's religious department that he was both a Christian and a Buddhist and there are certainly theologians who argue that a multitude of religions could be viably true without impingeing on the other. But you won't , of course, have factored anything like that.
At the very least different religions say different things about different aspects of life unless you are saying that basically all religions are the same.

Otherwise it seems you have returned to the board to continue your shamanic dance around me waving your magic list of self excuse and damning errors like survivor bias, leprachology, and assorted fallacies hoping that the smell might cling to me.

[ProfessorDavey]

No, apparently it depends on yours.

Nope - it is based on the notion that different people will have a different perspective depending on their own experience and background.

So, just as an example, my wife's family are catholic, she went to a catholic school, pretty well all of the social activities she engaged in as a child were with the practising catholic community associated with her church and school. That community was pretty insular, they had an informal list of tradespeople from their community, so would always employ catholic plumbers etc etc.

Ask someone in that community whether they were particularly religious and despite going to mass every week (at least), attending catholic schools etc etc, they'd probably see themselves as middle of the road in terms of religiosity as everyone else they knew also went to church every week, sent their kids to the catholic school etc etc.

But from a different perspective, all of those people are in the highest grouping for religiosity as most people don't do to church, send their kids to catholic schools, only employ plumbers of their faith etc etc.

And of course the second perspective is much more akin to the societal norm that the first.

So I'm not arguing that everything depends on my perspective - what I am saying is that in a country where only one in ten people goes to church it isn't credible to claim that someone one of those 10% most religious (in terms of attendance) is somehow 'not very religious' - in societal terms they are extremely religious.

[ProfessorDavey]

And what would you have been?

I don't know - but I'm not claiming some kind of major 'conversion' am I.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I think it was Spike Milligan who declared when interviewed by Gerald Priestland for BBC's religious department that he was both a Christian and a Buddhist and there are certainly theologians who argue that a multitude of religions could be viably true without impingeing on the other. But you won't , of course, have factored anything like that.
At the very least different religions say different things about different aspects of life unless you are saying that basically all religions are the same.

More straw manning won’t help you here. When people “encounter” deities almost invariably the deities concerned are only the ones to which they’re most enculturated. That’s called confirmation bias, and your “encounter” story is a textbook example of it.   

Otherwise it seems you have returned to the board to continue your shamanic dance around me waving your magic list of self excuse and damning errors like survivor bias, leprachology, and assorted fallacies hoping that the smell might cling to me.

If you don’t like having the roster of fallacies on which you rely pointed out you should stop committing them.

Long ago and far away I commented that I wasn’t sure whether you were an intelligent person trying very hard to look stupid, or vice versa. Eventually I worked it out, and your efforts here do nothing to suggest I was wrong about that.

Oh well.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't know - but I'm not claiming some kind of major 'conversion' am I.

No you aren't which makes me wonder whether you still have your familial faith or, as is more evident, your apparent allegiance to scientism.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

More straw manning won’t help you here. When people “encounter” deities almost invariably the deities concerned are only the ones to which they’re most enculturated. That’s called confirmation bias, and your “encounter” story is a textbook example of it.   

If you don’t like having the roster of fallacies on which you rely pointed out you should stop committing them.

Long ago and far away I commented that I wasn’t sure whether you were an intelligent person trying very hard to look stupid, or vice versa. Eventually I worked it out, and your efforts here do nothing to suggest I was wrong about that.

Oh well.   

No Hillside you wave a list of fallacies about and hope that one or more of your wee wizards bites. You must fucking hate everybody on this board....in my humble opinion.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

No Hillside you wave a list of fallacies about and hope that one or more of your wee wizards bites. You must fucking hate everybody on this board....in my humble opinion.

Unhinged.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Unhinged.

At least I have hinges Hillside.

[ProfessorDavey]

No you aren't which makes me wonder whether you still have your familial faith or, as is more evident, your apparent allegiance to scientism.

But as I have pointed out (actually many, many times on various threads) that I am non religious provides no likely insight into upbringing, because although kids brought up in a non religious household are almost certain to remain non religious as adults about 50% of those brought up in religious households will end up non religious.

So there isn't an equivalence with religious adults whatsoever.

So - show me an adult non religious person and it would be difficult to predict their upbringing.

Show me an adult religious person and I would predict, with almost certainty, that I'm looking at a person with a religious upbringing.

[ProfessorDavey]

Careful now, You are introducing a more superior methodology to the one you've been using.

Nope just using a commonly known colloquial phrase.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But as I have pointed out (actually many, many times on various threads) that I am non religious provides no likely insight into upbringing, because although kids brought up in a non religious household are almost certain to remain non religious as adults about 50% of those brought up in religious households will end up non religious.

But a recent survey of religious switching by the pew research group demonstrate a quarter of adults raised in non religious households have switched to a religion and 23%  switched to christianity. This report can be found here https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/

So there isn't an equivalence with religious adults whatsoever.

There is religious switching of those brought up in a non religious household to christianity according to survey. Not so much but switching does occur

So - show me an adult non religious person and it would be difficult to predict their upbringing.

That's no kind of methodology for a scientist, surely.

Show me an adult religious person and I would predict, with almost certainty, that I'm looking at a person with a religious upbringing.

What, even though a recent survey says that a quarter of adults from a non religious household switch to religious affiliation?

The report also talks about generational snowballing. By which presumably there will be more non religious people because their parents were non religious.

Basically the trends seen in non religious populations have been seen at one time or another in religious populations. Non christian religions seem to have a higher retention than either christianity or non religion. IMO this shows that other religions are transmitted more in a cultural or familial manner than christianity so it would be wrong to merge religion here.

[Gordon]

But a recent survey of religious switching by the pew research group demonstrate a quarter of adults raised in non religious households have switched to a religion and 23%  switched to christianity. This report can be found here https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/

The link you quote is about religiosity in the US - do you have a similar link to anything specific to the UK situation?

[ProfessorDavey]

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-religious-composition-has-changed-in-recent-decades/

And there was me thinking you were brought up in the UK Vlad - I hadn't realised you were American.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

At least I have hinges Hillside.

”The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias[2] whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[ProfessorDavey]

The link you quote is about religiosity in the US - do you have a similar link to anything specific to the UK situation?

Yes - the seminal work of David Voas - e.g. his Believing not Belonging study and others that have demonstrated a similar effect.

The key relevant summary finding relating to whether an adult will be religious or not depending on their upbringing are:

For children raised in a religious household, where both parents are religious - 46% will be religious as an adult
For children raised in a household where one parent is religious and the other not religious - 23% will be religious as an adult
For children raised in a non religious household - just 3% will be religious as an adult

There are all sorts of other details in the studies, but they paint a broadly similar picture.