Science and spirituality

[ProfessorDavey]

The link you quote is about religiosity in the US - do you have a similar link to anything specific to the UK situation?

There was also a recent survey of the breakdown of catholics in England and Wales, which showed a similar finding, but with knobs on.

So just 0.9% of current catholics were brought up in a non religious manner. 92.3% of current catholics were brought up catholic, although a catholic upbringing isn't very 'sticky' in terms of retention as only 55% of people brought up as catholics remain catholics as an adult.

The study also made comparisons with the other major christian denominations in the Uk, with similar findings, so 2% of current anglicans were brought up non religious, same for baptists and 0.8% of methodists were brought up non religious.

There is also a tiny proportion of current christians in the UK (0.1-0.4%) brought up non christian religion.

So except for a couple of % current chrstians weer brought up in their current denomination or were brought up in a different christian denomination. So the only meaningful 'conversion' to christianity in numerical terms is from one christian denomination to another.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The link you quote is about religiosity in the US - do you have a similar link to anything specific to the UK situation?

A tad parochial and nationalistic.
The US survey is the larger sample.

The Pew research center did a world survey in 2015,

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

”The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias[2] whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I think there is a thread on this site about how the Dunning Kruger effect might not actually be a thing so your post
Is passe Hillside.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And there was me thinking you were brought up in the UK Vlad - I hadn't realised you were American.

I can see how you might respond to this since the universality of many of your contentions. I will cheerfully discuss why Britain and the US seem to be at variance with UK data.

The main take away for me is that retention is greater in almost all other religions than christianity showing as far as I can see a difference in transmission.

[ProfessorDavey]

A tad parochial and nationalistic.

Seeing as we were talking about your upbringing then it is entirely relevant to discuss that in the context of the society in which you were brought up - which I gather is the UK. The US has a very different cultural and societal relationship to religion that we do, although I suspect it is quite rapidly moving in the same direction, but perhaps a couple of decades behind us, as your survey shows.

The Pew research center did a world survey in 2015,

Which showed what in relation to upbringing and retention of religiosity in the UK?

[ProfessorDavey]

The main take away for me is that retention is greater in almost all other religions than christianity showing as far as I can see a difference in transmission.

The main take away from which survey.

I don't think the UK research I've described looked in any detail at non christian religions. Nor I think does the Pew research - meaning I can't see any data on the stickiness of non christian religions.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I think there is a thread on this site about how the Dunning Kruger effect might not actually be a thing so your post
Is passe Hillside.

Except, ironically, your efforts here continue to demonstrate that it’s very much a “thing”.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

Except, ironically, your efforts here continue to demonstrate that it’s very much a “thing”.

I'm sure there are thousands out there saying "Oh no, Hillside's Dunning again...I do wish he would give it a rest."....

[jeremyp]

I don't think you understand the scope of popperian science.

I don't think you understand how little I care about your "look a squirrel" moments.

Also, the resurrection is proposed as a miracle in the full knowledge that the normal run of things is suspended.

You're on the science board here. Your appeals to supernatural nonsense have no weight.

[Alan Burns]

Following on from the discussion on the resurrection - an interesting view on the profound effects the resurrection had on three fundamental aspects of our world today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTeY7RDtWRg

(published just three days ago)

[Maeght]

Following on from the discussion on the resurrection - an interesting view on the profound effects the resurrection had on three fundamental aspects of our world today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTeY7RDtWRg

(published just three days ago)

Belief in the resurrection maybe.

Any progress on finding that evidence about the Apostles mostly being killed for their beliefs - beyond Church tradition?

[ProfessorDavey]

Following on from the discussion on the resurrection - an interesting view on the profound effects the resurrection had on three fundamental aspects of our world today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTeY7RDtWRg

(published just three days ago)

I think you need to demonstrate that the resurrection actually happened before ascribing effects to it.

What you describing are effects of a belief in the resurrection, which is an entirely different thing.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Belief in the resurrection maybe.

Any progress on finding that evidence about the Apostles mostly being killed for their beliefs - beyond Church tradition?

I can understand disbelief in the resurrection. But I am interested in Why you doubt the reported fate of the apostles.

[Maeght]

I can understand disbelief in the resurrection. But I am interested in Why you doubt the reported fate of the apostles.

Because the reports are later church tradition on the whole with no supporting evidence.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Because the reports are later church tradition on the whole with no supporting evidence.

So does that mean they didn't die or didn't die for their faith?

[ProfessorDavey]

But I am interested in Why you doubt the reported fate of the apostles.

I genuinely don't know the answer, but are there any contemporary or close to contemporary reports other than from christian sources that provide accounts of the deaths of the apostles. I would imagine that were they executed by others those others would have reported this too.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think you need to demonstrate that the resurrection actually happened before ascribing effects to it.

What you describing are effects of a belief in the resurrection, which is an entirely different thing.

I think Alan is saying is" here are the effects what is the cause?"
The other approach is to suggest subterfuge, madness, gullibility, conspiracy and hoax but not commit to anything.

[Maeght]

So does that mean they didn't die or didn't die for their faith?

It means we don't know anything about the death of the majority of the apostles. Alan used the 'fact' that most of the apostles died for their faith as support for the belief that the resurrection happened but we don't know that that is what happened. it may just be later stories and traditions.

[Maeght]

I genuinely don't know the answer, but are there any contemporary or close to contemporary reports other than from christian sources that provide accounts of the deaths of the apostles. I would imagine that were they executed by others those others would have reported this too.

A few reports about deaths but certainly not in the case of most of the apostles. I have seen discussions involving historians around maybe three at most - and maybe not all of those were 'for their faith'.

[Maeght]

I think Alan is saying here are the effects what is the cause.
The other approach is to suggest subterfuge, madness, gullibility, conspiracy and hoax but not commit to anything.

No need to suggest alternatives, just to ask for evidence to support the claim.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It means we don't know anything about the death of the majority of the apostles. Alan used the 'fact' that most of the apostles died for their faith as support for the belief that the resurrection happened but we don't know that that is what happened. it may just be later stories and traditions.

I'm sorry but you are deliberately ignoring church reports here.
Why?

[Maeght]

I'm sorry but you are deliberately ignoring church reports here.
Why?

Because they are later traditions from sources which are not independent.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No need to suggest alternatives, just to ask for evidence to support the claim.

No I don't think you can ignore alternatives since that is what provides the basis of your enquiry.

If you conclude it didn't happen then you have to do so on the basis of an alternative.

EG The Queen did not die in 2021 because she died a year later.

[Maeght]

No I don't think you can ignore alternatives since that is what provides the basis of your enquiry.

If you conclude it didn't happen then you have to do so on the basis of an alternative.

EG The Queen did not die in 2021 because she died a year later.

I didn't conclude that it didn't happen but said there is no evidence it did, so we don't know. There is no need to provide alternatives when not accepting something due to lack of evidence to support the claim.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Because they are later traditions from sources which are not independent.

No reason to ignore them.
There are no records whatsoever of them dying for any reason but but I don't see you asking for evidence for that.
It looks like bias on your part.