Bye bye Braverman

[Enki]

And therein lies the success of the Conservatives. Convince people that politicians are all the same and there is much less impetus to vote for change.

It's nonsense of course. But very successful nonsense.

Yes, the Conservatives have behaved like headless chickens as regards the asylum/immigration problems. I would certainly criticise them and the Home Office for the appalling lack of any coherent and workable policy but I would also support Violent Gabriella when she suggested that she doesn't have much faith in a different govt doing any better.

The history of the Blair/Brown years as regards the immigration question didn't exactly fill me with confidence either.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

[Aruntraveller]

Yes, the Conservatives have behaved like headless chickens as regards the asylum/immigration problems. I would certainly criticise them and the Home Office for the appalling lack of any coherent and workable policy but I would also support Violent Gabriella when she suggested that she doesn't have much faith in a different govt doing any better.

The history of the Blair/Brown years as regards the immigration question didn't exactly fill me with confidence either.

Possibly, but reelecting the same bunch of proven incompetents is not going to even give you the chance of a different outcome. At the moment watching the UK is a bit like watching a man play a fixed one-arm bandit hoping that next time he'll win.

[Nearly Sane]

Possibly, but reelecting the same bunch of proven incompetents is not going to even give you the chance of a different outcome. At the moment watching the UK is a bit like watching a man play a fixed one-arm bandit hoping that next time he'll win.

Not just incomptetent but law breaking, using inflammatory language, and wasting money on the nonsense of Zimbabwe just to do a bit of posturing 

[Udayana]

Zimbabwe?

[Udayana]

Yes, the Conservatives have behaved like headless chickens as regards the asylum/immigration problems. I would certainly criticise them and the Home Office for the appalling lack of any coherent and workable policy but I would also support Violent Gabriella when she suggested that she doesn't have much faith in a different govt doing any better.

The history of the Blair/Brown years as regards the immigration question didn't exactly fill me with confidence either.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

The problems are insolvable given the differing outlooks of those attempting to migrate to escape persecution, poverty or even to improve their lives and of those in relatively rich nations who seem to think that they have reached a position that they have to defend without consideration of the well being of others - even those whose wealth and freedom they have stolen or destroyed.
 

[Nearly Sane]

Zimbabwe?

Rwanda  - senior moment

[SteveH]

This Rwanda scheme - I take it the government has done a deal with the Rwandan government, and isn't planning to just dump them in Rwanda whether its government likes it or not?

[Nearly Sane]

This Rwanda scheme - I take it the government has done a deal with the Rwandan government, and isn't planning to just dump them in Rwanda whether its government likes it or not?

In theory, yes. But I wouldn't tempt them with the idea.

[Nearly Sane]

On the waste of £140m so far on the Rwandan deal


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-pays-rwanda-extra-20m-despite-no-migrant-deportations-8nxmwfwt7

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The problems are insolvable given the differing outlooks of those attempting to migrate to escape persecution, poverty or even to improve their lives and of those in relatively rich nations who seem to think that they have reached a position that they have to defend without consideration of the well being of others - even those whose wealth and freedom they have stolen or destroyed.

Yes I would agree with that assessment.

If I was in the position of migrants, I would almost certainly bend the truth to get an opportunity to better my life - different people will bend the truth to different degrees. So many people lie or exaggerate in so many areas of their life - job interviews, relationships, business deals, politics.

No doubt to a migrant, it seems like they are battling against a bureaucracy that is largely indifferent to their struggles. Migrants/ asylum seekers probably do not feel as if they are seen as individuals and if no one cares about them as individuals or the struggles of their life why should they, as the migrant, care about the struggles of nameless, faceless British people?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

And therein lies the success of the Conservatives. Convince people that politicians are all the same and there is much less impetus to vote for change.

It's nonsense of course. But very successful nonsense.

I don't think it is an assessment of just politicians. It is an assessment of people. Regardless of having good intentions many people, including many politicians in all the political parties, are somewhat incompetent in much of what they attempt, and somewhat ineffective in much of what they attempt or if they do happen to be effective in some area of their job they might be ineffective or incompetent in certain aspects of their personal life - they might be a lousy husband or wife or bend the rules but have exceptional skills in strategic thinking or leadership or negotiating or financial aptitude.

If we're talking about politics specifically and voting for change - once upon a time the Tories were seen as lacking compassion and nuance and seemed totally self-absorbed. Unfortunately, now that Labour has become so obsessed with identity politics and shutting down debate and ripping people to shreds for saying the wrong thing and trying to destroy their livelihood, the Labour party now also seems full of people who lack compassion and nuance and are totally self-absorbed - maybe in a different way from the Tories but same outcome - you become invisible to them. I don't think it's nonsense that I can't trust people who are obsessed with dogma and ideology - regardless of whether it is Tory or Labour dogma and ideology.

[Aruntraveller]

once upon a time the Tories were seen as lacking compassion and nuance and seemed totally self-absorbed.

Sorry, I couldn't get beyond the past tense in your sentence.

[SteveH]

Does anyone else keep wanting to call her Suella Benjamin, by confusion with Floella Benjamin, Baroness Benjamin of Beckenham, actress, children's TV presenter, Lib Dem peer and all-round good egg, in contrast to Nutella, the chinless wonder, who is definitely a bad egg?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Sorry, I couldn't get beyond the past tense in your sentence.

Ha! Yes Tories are still lacking in those qualities.

Labour seems to have joined in now, but it manifests differently from the Tories.

Not really sure about compassion towards migrants as being more worthy than compassion towards the indigenous population who are struggling. When I came to Britain in the 70s my family didn't really have any illusions about living in a non-racist society. We had just left a racist society. All the communities were racist in Sri Lanka. That doesn't mean every single person is a racist but generally racism is understandable even if it is not correct. You will find it in India, the continent of Africa, Europe, the Middle East, the far East - people are suspicious of people with different cultural behaviour - other people's cultural norms are hard to understand and can come across as hostile even when not intended to be. Also people generally don't adapt well to rapid change.

Many of us brown people know this about other brown, black people and make allowances for their suspicion and resistance to change and try to be diplomatic and mindful and understanding of their prejudice. Because that usually works better and has a better outcome than calling them names and dismissing their concerns. So many of us took this approach to white people when we came here. Especially if you are fairly aspirational and not the type of person who feels like a victim. We know racism is stupid and irrational - but human beings can be stupid and irrational - so you work around it and hopefully over time as people get to know you, the understanding and tolerance increases and we all become a community.

Hopefully the brown people in the Tory Cabinet will take that pragmatic diplomatic approach to racism - especially if they grew up in Britain in the 1970s and 1980s and if they have spent a lot of time amongst their racist brown communities and visited their country of origin on a fairly regular basis to remind them of the normal racism in their own communities.

I really don't get why white people in Britian TODAY spend so much time worrying about being racist.

ETA: I should clarify that I mean worrying about being racist because they are suspicious of asylum seekers and migrants.

I think people should worry about being racist in other areas e.g. policing 

[Spud]

Does anyone else keep wanting to call her Suella Benjamin, by confusion with Floella Benjamin

Yup