Poppymas

[Nearly Sane]

I feel like one of those people who go on about the true meaning of Christmas but as a pacifist, my objection hete is not about the red poppy but the desecration of meaning. This, and many other such, are not about remembering the fallen but about self veneration.

[Nearly Sane]

.

[SqueakyVoice]

https://www.ppu.org.uk/remembrance-white-poppies

The white poppy has been worn in the run-up to Remembrance Day for almost ninety years, as a symbol of remembrance and peace.

[Anchorman]

I've already had my  "You're bringing politics into it. Just wear a poppy' speech because I have a lapel badge with a SSaltire inside the poppy.
When I pointed out that I obtained this from PoppyScotland, and that they had been making them for twenty years, the reply was
"They'r a' brainwashed. Whit d'ye think we fought for?'
They walk among us......

[Nearly Sane]

'As I stroked in that testing five footer for a par, I looked at the poppy lined hole and remembered that first Christmas on the front, when Jerry and us played pitch and putt, and the Hun blighter cheated throughout'

[ProfessorDavey]

I've already had my  "You're bringing politics into it. Just wear a poppy' speech because I have a lapel badge with a SSaltire inside the poppy.
When I pointed out that I obtained this from PoppyScotland, and that they had been making them for twenty years, the reply was
"They'r a' brainwashed. Whit d'ye think we fought for?'
They walk among us......

There is no obligation to buy one just because someone produces them - that is entirely your choice and your decision to defend.

I think the inclusion of any nationalistic symbol associated with the poppy is simply wrong - the poppy is supposed to be a symbol of remembrance which should reach way beyond national borders. So a poppy with a saltire is no more acceptable than a poppy with a union jack.

[Anchorman]

There is no obligation to buy one just because someone produces them - that is entirely your choice and your decision to defend.

I think the inclusion of any nationalistic symbol associated with the poppy is simply wrong - the poppy is supposed to be a symbol of remembrance which should reach way beyond national borders. So a poppy with a saltire is no more acceptable than a poppy with a union jack.

   

Take that up with PoppyScotland.
Apparently, they first produced a cloth version in the 1970s.
PoppyScotland used to be called the Earl Haig Fund.
The poppy in Scotland has always differed from that of England, right from its' inception.
If the factory, staffed, as in England, by ex-servicemen, felt the need to differentiate, who am I to argue?

[ProfessorDavey]

Take that up with PoppyScotland.

Nope - I'm taking it up with you as you bought one and I'm sure you could have easily bought one without a saltire.

If you ram a saltire (or a union jack) onto the poppy I cannot see you aren't sending a message that somehow Scottish (or British) dead are more important for remembrance than other dead. The poppy and remembrance should transcend petty nationalism - not least because many of those dead, particularly in WW1 (and arguably in WW2 due to the legacy of WW1) died precisely because of petty nationalism.

[Anchorman]

Nope - I'm taking it up with you as you bought one and I'm sure you could have easily bought one without a saltire.

If you ram a saltire (or a union jack) onto the poppy I cannot see you aren't sending a message that somehow Scottish (or British) dead are more important for remembrance than other dead. The poppy and remembrance should transcend petty nationalism - not least because many of those dead, particularly in WW1 (and arguably in WW2 due to the legacy of WW1) died precisely because of petty nationalism.

   

You don't need to lecture me on flags.
My grandfather fought at the Somme.
On his return, he threw his four medals in the midden, swore that if he ever came near a union flag again, he would use it as a substite for toilet rolls, and refeused to buy a poppy at any time, though he donated to the Earl Haig fund.
His brother, who also fought for dear old blighty, was slaughtered by the black and tans whilst visiting his cousin in Ireland.
Presumably, if the Earl Haig fund felt perfectly happy making a different poppy from that of England, and, later, a poppy with a Saltire, they had no issues with this, in a time when there was less demand for Scottish autonomy.
That they still manufacture the Saltire and Poppy shows that there is a market for the product.
If it raises money for British Legion (Scotland) then that's fine by me.

[ProfessorDavey]

You don't need to lecture me on flags.

Better get used to it while you insist on buying a symbol of remembrance adorned with a nationalistic symbol.

My grandfather fought at the Somme.

My father's favourite uncle was in the RAF in WW2.

On his return ...

My great uncle headed off on a mission in a Beaufighter one day and never returned - no wreckage, no body - lost at sea.

So, what to do eh. A poppy with a flag of St George because he was English. But what if he'd been my great uncle on my mother's side - then a poppy with a saltire because then we would have been Scottish. Or just a poppy with a union jack as in both cases they'd been British.

Well here is a better idea - ditch the nationalist symbols and simply keep the poppy, the symbol of remembrance unadorned, as it should be. Petty nationalism should be kept well away from remembrance, except to ensure we remember that petty nationalism is the reason so many of them died in the first place.

[Nearly Sane]

.

[Aruntraveller]

Tasteful!

[Anchorman]

Better get used to it while you insist on buying a symbol of remembrance adorned with a nationalistic symbol. My father's favourite uncle was in the RAF in WW2. My great uncle headed off on a mission in a Beaufighter one day and never returned - no wreckage, no body - lost at sea. So, what to do eh. A poppy with a flag of St George because he was English. But what if he'd been my great uncle on my mother's side - then a poppy with a saltire because then we would have been Scottish. Or just a poppy with a union jack as in both cases they'd been British. Well here is a better idea - ditch the nationalist symbols and simply keep the poppy, the symbol of remembrance unadorned, as it should be. Petty nationalism should be kept well away from remembrance, except to ensure we remember that petty nationalism is the reason so many of them died in the first place.

Yet from the very outset, the controversy - and it was a heated controversy - over the difference in Scottish and English Poppies, even though both were made by the British legion, sparked comment in the Times, debate in the HOC, and even demonstrations outside the Lady Haig factory in Edinburgh....yet the British Legion itself felt no issue in making two different poppies, nor poppies with national flags.

[Nearly Sane]

Yet from the very outset, the controversy - and it was a heated controversy - over the difference in Scottish and English Poppies, even though both were made by the British legion, sparked comment in the Times, debate in the HOC, and even demonstrations outside the Lady Haig factory in Edinburgh....yet the British Legion itself felt no issue in making two different poppies, nor poppies with national flags.

https://youtu.be/8ajHs8tCWew

[Nearly Sane]

.

[Nearly Sane]

.

[Nearly Sane]

.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yet from the very outset ...

From the outset the poppy was an international symbol of remembrance, focussing on allied losses - indeed the earliest adopters and promotors of the symbol were French and from the US, based on a poem written by a Canadian.

You seem rather obsessed with a later and narrower use - that of the Royal British Legion, who aren't the arbiters of the use (and misuse) of the poppy in its original international remembrance context.

[Anchorman]

From the outset the poppy was an international symbol of remembrance, focussing on allied losses - indeed the earliest adopters and promotors of the symbol were French and from the US, based on a poem written by a Canadian.

You seem rather obsessed with a later and narrower use - that of the Royal British Legion, who aren't the arbiters of the use (and misuse) of the poppy in its original international remembrance context.

Nope.
Simply pointing out that, though the poppy is ubiquitous, from the British Legion's first manufacturing it, it differs in Scotland and England.

[ProfessorDavey]

Nope.
Simply pointing out that, though the poppy is ubiquitous, from the British Legion's first manufacturing it, it differs in Scotland and England.

So what.

The issue isn't about whether the poppy manufacturing is different in different countries (and of course poppies are made and sold across the world, not just in England and Scotland). Nope the issue is about mixing up remembrance and petty nationalism, which is the clear implication if you have a poppy with a national flag adorning it, regardless of whether that national flag is the saltire, the union jack, the flag of St George, the Ukrainian flag etc etc.

Given that the reason why so many of those that died did so was petty nationalism it is deeply inappropriate to conflate their remembrance with the very thing that caused their deaths in the first place. And I don't give a stuff whether the British Legion, or their Scottish equivalent allow this - I deeply disapprove. And stop hiding behind their sanction of the nationalistic symbols on poppies. You don't have to buy a poppy with a flag - if you choose to do so that is your decision to defend, not the British Legion etc.

[SteveH]

I tend to be a poppy refusenik, resenting its obligatoriness, but someone at work was flogging these home-knitted ones yesterday, so I bought one. Attachments doesn't seem to be working, so here's a link to it on Flickr.  https://flic.kr/p/2nXJjKG

[ProfessorDavey]

I tend to be a poppy refusenik, resenting its obligatoriness, but someone at work was flogging these home-knitted ones yesterday, so I bought one. Attachments doesn't seem to be working, so here's a link to it on Flickr.  https://flic.kr/p/2nXJjKG

I feel somewhat similar - I really dislike the notion that it has become 'expected' that you must wear a poppy rather than a choice.

I wouldn't mind so much if the poppy symbolism hadn't morphed so much in the past few decades.

Once upon a time the poppy was for remembrance of all those that died in the industrial conflicts of WW1 and WW2, most of whom were conscripts rather than professional, career military people. That seemed right to me as the scale and the nature of the sacrifice, from people who had no choice, seemed immense.

But this has changed completely - now it seems to be all about 'supporting our boys' (even if they are girls) - effectively moving from remembrance and a wish for peace to something that is militaristic, jingoistic and nationalistic. I really dislike that shift and I feel very challenged by the symbolism as it has become. All the worse when people want to overlay overt nationalistic symbolism, such as nationalist flags over what was always a symbol that no one nation had any claim over.

[Nearly Sane]

Your Poppymas carriage is coming

[Nearly Sane]

They only sleep...

[jeremyp]

They only sleep...

Err...

"Lest we remember"?