Poppymas

[Nearly Sane]

.

[ProfessorDavey]

They only sleep...

Careful now - AM will be along in a minute insisting that the only appropriate manner to sleep under a poppy duvet cover is to pair it with saltire pillows.

[Anchorman]

Careful now - AM will be along in a minute insisting that the only appropriate manner to sleep under a poppy duvet cover is to pair it with saltire pillows.

   




I wasn't aware that the RBL under PoppyScotland made such a thing.

[ProfessorDavey]

I wasn't aware that the RBL under PoppyScotland made such a thing.

Better get on to them quick AM - I'm sure you'll want to ensure that people can pair their remembrance poppy symbolism with petty nationalism symbolism as often as possible.

[Anchorman]

Better get on to them quick AM - I'm sure you'll want to ensure that people can pair their remembrance poppy symbolism with petty nationalism symbolism as often as possible.

Nope. I'm perfectly happy with the British Legion poppy and Saltire badge, thanks.

[ProfessorDavey]

Nope. I'm perfectly happy with the British Legion poppy and Saltire badge, thanks.

But what about all your petty nationalist mates - surely someone wants to ensure they sleep with their heart is covered not just by a remembrance poppy but also a petty nationalist symbol.

Otherwise they might start thinking that dead english people are just as worthy of remembrance as dead scottish people.

[Anchorman]

But what about all your petty nationalist mates - surely someone wants to ensure they sleep with their heart is covered not just by a remembrance poppy but also a petty nationalist symbol.

Otherwise they might start thinking that dead english people are just as worthy of remembrance as dead scottish people.

 


Nope. Just availing myself of products manufactured by ex-servicemen who feel no issue in making a product with the Saltire in it.

[ProfessorDavey]

Nope. Just availing myself of products manufactured by ex-servicemen who feel no issue in making a product with the Saltire in it.

I doubt those making poppy products for sale have much say over their design AM.

[ProfessorDavey]

Just availing myself of products manufactured by ex-servicemen ...

Which, of course, also includes poppies not adorned with nationalistic symbols and also poppies adorned with non-sottish nationalistic symbols e.g. these:

https://www.poppyscotlandstore.com/products/poppy-union-jack-pin-badge-20l
https://lestweforgetuk.com/product/remembrance-poppy-cross-of-saint-george-flag-pin/?wishlist-action

So given that choice what is the reason you buy a remembrance poppy with a saltire, rather than any other nationalistic symbol or no nationalistic symbol. It isn't because that is all that is available, nor the only way to support ex-servicepeople. It is a choice that you have made and one that you seem to keep side stepping when challenged to defend.

[Nearly Sane]

I doubt those making poppy products for sale have much say over their design AM.

'Ex Servicemen enslaved to petty nationalism', claims Prof!

[ProfessorDavey]

'Ex Servicemen enslaved to petty nationalism', claims Prof!

Job for you as a headline writer for the tabloids NS.

But as so often with tabloid headlines - not true.

My point was simply that ex-service personnel employed to make poppy products are unlikely to have any involvement in their design, nor in which particular product the may, or may not, be involved in making.

That would be the same for employees working on the production line for biscuits - yet AM seems to imply that somehow the poppy/saltire combination is approved of by ex personnel simply because they are involved in making them. That is as crazy as claiming that someone's favourite biscuit must be a hob-knob because they are employed on the production line that makes hob-knobs.

[Nearly Sane]

Job for you as a headline writer for the tabloids NS.

But as so often with tabloid headlines - not true.

My point was simply that ex-service personnel employed to make poppy products are unlikely to have any involvement in their design, nor in which particular product the may, or may not, be involved in making.

That would be the same for employees working on the production line for biscuits - yet AM seems to imply that somehow the poppy/saltire combination is approved of by ex personnel simply because they are involved in making them. That is as crazy as claiming that someone's favourite biscuit must be a hob-knob because they are employed on the production line that makes hob-knobs.

I did think the humour would fly way over your head. I just underestimated by how much.

[ProfessorDavey]

I did think the humour would fly way over your head. I just underestimated by how much.

Should have put a smiley face after my first sentence - as, yes, I did realise that your tongue was firmly in your cheek.

The rest was aimed at AM, not you.

I'll alter my comment now.

[ProfessorDavey]

Job for you as a headline writer for the tabloids NS.

There you go NS - much better.

[Nearly Sane]

Should have put a smiley face after my first sentence - as, yes, I did realise that your tongue was firmly in your cheek.

The rest was aimed at AM, not you.

I'll alter my comment now.

Not sure that helps as much as you think it does. Maybe have a Poppy cocktail and breath in the scent of remembrance, and thrice distilled vodka, made as those in the trenches died to protect.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not sure that helps as much as you think it does. Maybe have a Poppy cocktail and breath in the scent of remembrance, and thrice distilled vodka, made as those in the trenches died to protect.

Which you'd need to virtue shame people into feeling obliged to drink before they were allowed to order anything else in every bar and pub from mid Oct to mid Nov.

[Nearly Sane]

Ffs!

[Nearly Sane]

Part of the reasons I hate the over the top and commercialised poppy shite is that it seems entirely at odds with the dignified remembrance of my friends who are serving, or have served in the armed forces. As a lifelong pacifist, I find more in common with them than the ostentatious 'don't forget about them by looking at me' lot.


On Sunday, I will make my way to George Sq in Glasgow as it's the last service in uniform for one of my oldest friends. Last time I went was the 2018 100th anniversary. As then I will have this running through my head.


Suicide In The Trenches

I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.

In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.

Sassoon

[Anchorman]

Part of the reasons I hate the over the top and commercialised poppy shite is that it seems entirely at odds with the dignified remembrance of my friends who are serving, or have served in the armed forces. As a lifelong pacifist, I find more in common with them than the ostentatious 'don't forget about them by looking at me' lot.


On Sunday, I will make my way to George Sq in Glasgow as it's the last service in uniform for one of my oldest friends. Last time I went was the 2018 100th anniversary. As then I will have this running through my head.


Suicide In The Trenches

I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.

In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.

Sassoon

   
Yes.
I'm remembering Jim FitzSimmonds, a bomb disposal officer killed on HMS Antelope in the Falklands war.
I knew Jim, mainly through his wife Theresa, who was part of an ecumenical housegroup I attended in the early '80s.
Jim wouldn't have minded me wearining the poppy/saltire - he was independence supporter long, long before I ever was, or, for that matter, the white poppy which I wear below it every Rememberance Sunday.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes.
I'm remembering Jim FitzSimmonds, a bomb disposal officer killed on HMS Antelope in the Falklands war.
I knew Jim, mainly through his wife Theresa, who was part of an ecumenical housegroup I attended in the early '80s.
Jim wouldn't have minded me wearining the poppy/saltire - he was independence supporter long, long before I ever was, or, for that matter, the white poppy which I wear below it every Rememberance Sunday.

I thought the whole point of remembrance was to remember everyone, not just the people you knew. Hence the importance of the Unknown Warrior.

For those we know, we can remember them as we do for others we know - on their birthdays or anniversary of their death, when we are doing things that bring them to mind. But remembrance is surely about those countless thousands who we didn't know personally but who fought and died in war.

[SteveH]

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/stop-poppy-shaming-says-armed-060000430.html

[Anchorman]

I thought the whole point of remembrance was to remember everyone, not just the people you knew. Hence the importance of the Unknown Warrior.

For those we know, we can remember them as we do for others we know - on their birthdays or anniversary of their death, when we are doing things that bring them to mind. But remembrance is surely about those countless thousands who we didn't know personally but who fought and died in war.

   


Rememberance is what you want it to be - what you need it to be.
At our war memorial on Sunday, we will have the wreath laying and bugle as well as the piper....and the prayers will include remembering the miners who worked and died so that the war could be won.
We'll move twenty feet to the right of the war memorial and lay other wreaths at the 'miners cross' - two girders welded together, with the names of eighty men who died in local mines between 1900 and 1984.

[ProfessorDavey]

Rememberance is what you want it to be - what you need it to be.

Sure anyone can turn it into anything, but that does mean they should, nor that everything is within the spirit of what remembrance is supposed to be. So if a wears a poppy 'cos they are remembering their gran who died last year' no one can stop them but that isn't what remembrance is supposed to be about.

At its very broadest it is about remembering all who have died (or been injured) during war. More specifically in its original form it was about those who died in WW1 with WW2 included later - only much more recently did it become about all wars. And also there is a caveat about 'who is worthy' - this typically is restricted to those who fought on 'our side' (actually I don't like this as many who died on the 'other side' had no choice in what they were doing), narrower still (and I like this even less) it becomes about the dead of just one country.

At our war memorial on Sunday, we will have the wreath laying and bugle as well as the piper....and the prayers will include remembering the miners who worked and died so that the war could be won.

Yes seems appropriate - those who died in non military occupations because of the war often get forgotten.

We'll move twenty feet to the right of the war memorial and lay other wreaths at the 'miners cross' - two girders welded together, with the names of eighty men who died in local mines between 1900 and 1984.

Now I'm beginning to struggle - which war was responsible for the death of a miner in 1984? I have no issue with remembering those who died in mines at any time, but this doesn't seem to fit with remembrance Sunday to me as that is about those who died or were affected by war.

[Nearly Sane]

Sure anyone can turn it into anything, but that does mean they should, nor that everything is within the spirit of what remembrance is supposed to be. So if a wears a poppy 'cos they are remembering their gran who died last year' no one can stop them but that isn't what remembrance is supposed to be about.

At its very broadest it is about remembering all who have died (or been injured) during war. More specifically in its original form it was about those who died in WW1 with WW2 included later - only much more recently did it become about all wars. And also there is a caveat about 'who is worthy' - this typically is restricted to those who fought on 'our side' (actually I don't like this as many who died on the 'other side' had no choice in what they were doing), narrower still (and I like this even less) it becomes about the dead of just one country.
Yes seems appropriate - those who died in non military occupations because of the war often get forgotten.
Now I'm beginning to struggle - which war was responsible for the death of a miner in 1984? I have no issue with remembering those who died in mines at any time, but this doesn't seem to fit with remembrance Sunday to me as that is about those who died or were affected by war.

Surely it's no business of your's if a community chooses to remember different groups at this time?

[Anchorman]

Sure anyone can turn it into anything, but that does mean they should, nor that everything is within the spirit of what remembrance is supposed to be. So if a wears a poppy 'cos they are remembering their gran who died last year' no one can stop them but that isn't what remembrance is supposed to be about. At its very broadest it is about remembering all who have died (or been injured) during war. More specifically in its original form it was about those who died in WW1 with WW2 included later - only much more recently did it become about all wars. And also there is a caveat about 'who is worthy' - this typically is restricted to those who fought on 'our side' (actually I don't like this as many who died on the 'other side' had no choice in what they were doing), narrower still (and I like this even less) it becomes about the dead of just one country. Yes seems appropriate - those who died in non military occupations because of the war often get forgotten. Now I'm beginning to struggle - which war was responsible for the death of a miner in 1984? I have no issue with remembering those who died in mines at any time, but this doesn't seem to fit with remembrance Sunday to me as that is about those who died or were affected by war.

The reason for the joint commemoration is simple. The date marks the time when the victims of the Barony colliery disaster were finally bricked up in the collapsed seam. My father was one of those who laid the bricks at the spot where their remains still lie, being beyond recovery. In 1973, on the unveiling of the cross, a miner who had also served in the army )a D-Day veteran) suggested both sets of dead should be commemorated at the same time. We have done so, each remembrance Sunday. The reason for the joint commemoration is simple. The date marks the time when the victims of the Barony colliery disaster were finally bricked up in the collapsed seam. My father was one of those who laid the bricks at the spot where their remains still lie, being beyond recovery. In 1973, on the unveiling of the cross, a miner who had also served in the army )a D-Day veteran) suggested both sets of dead should be commemorated at the same time. We have done so, each remembrance Sunday.