Author Topic: Some supernatural claims  (Read 6638 times)

Spud

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2023, 01:00:46 PM »
But your claim was of a theory that Matthew originally ended at 28:8 - I can't seen anything in the link in support of this - perhaps it isn't in the available chapter.
True -the chapters available in the preview don't give the full picture. Just to say it is available as an e-book, which is cheaper than the hardback. There are other chapters detailing the specific material Riley thinks was edited in. This includes the story of the guards, and the reference to the mission to all nations in the last few verses of ch.28, which, he says, gives significance to the record of the meeting in Galilee, and therefore must have been an addition because previous references to the mission to the Gentiles and the end of the age (such as in 24:3) also appear to have been additions.

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But on that - his argument seems to be that Mark borrowed not from Matthew, but from some lost proto-Matthew. To which the easy repost is - well if there is a proto-Matthew, surely there will also be a proto-Mark. It seems again like cherry picking.
He thinks Mark's copy of Matthew did contain most of the additions, such as the Sermon on the Mount, which Mark omitted.

The first chapter talks about some 17 so-called 'doublets', already documented by another author called Hawkins. Each of these consists of two instances of a sentence or paragraph, with one instance fitting well into its own context and the other not fitting its own context. He supposes that the one that appears not to fit is an insertion into an original, well structured text (which he calls proto-Matthew).

The last of these doublets is the angel's instruction to the women to tell the disciples to go to Galilee, and the similar instruction by Jesus himself in the next paragraph. After receiving the instruction once, it's surprising that the women would receive it again minutes later.

What I find almost inconsistent about Riley's theory is that on the one hand he says the description of the appearance in Galilee flows naturally from what comes before, but on the other hand he says that the appearance in Galilee appears to be edited in by someone for whom the mission to all nations and the close of the age is his main interest. Whereas the appearance of Jesus to the women looks like an addition, it's hard to know whether he thinks the original had an appearance in Galilee or not.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2023, 01:52:13 PM »
True -the chapters available in the preview don't give the full picture. Just to say it is available as an e-book, which is cheaper than the hardback. There are other chapters detailing the specific material Riley thinks was edited in. This includes the story of the guards, and the reference to the mission to all nations in the last few verses of ch.28, which, he says, gives significance to the record of the meeting in Galilee, and therefore must have been an addition because previous references to the mission to the Gentiles and the end of the age (such as in 24:3) also appear to have been additions.
He thinks Mark's copy of Matthew did contain most of the additions, such as the Sermon on the Mount, which Mark omitted.

The first chapter talks about some 17 so-called 'doublets', already documented by another author called Hawkins. Each of these consists of two instances of a sentence or paragraph, with one instance fitting well into its own context and the other not fitting its own context. He supposes that the one that appears not to fit is an insertion into an original, well structured text (which he calls proto-Matthew).

The last of these doublets is the angel's instruction to the women to tell the disciples to go to Galilee, and the similar instruction by Jesus himself in the next paragraph. After receiving the instruction once, it's surprising that the women would receive it again minutes later.

What I find almost inconsistent about Riley's theory is that on the one hand he says the description of the appearance in Galilee flows naturally from what comes before, but on the other hand he says that the appearance in Galilee appears to be edited in by someone for whom the mission to all nations and the close of the age is his main interest. Whereas the appearance of Jesus to the women looks like an addition, it's hard to know whether he thinks the original had an appearance in Galilee or not.
I'm not going to invest in some e-book on the basis that you think somehow it backs up your assertions Spud. If you want to argue this as evidence then you'll need to provide this.

I've also tried, unsuccessfully, find some kind of biography for this chap. You claim he is a serious scholar, but without understanding his biog that it very hard to determine. Certainly the critiques at the end of the ebook edit you linked to don't really suggest we are dealing with a serious and independent scholar, rather than a person tilting to some evangelical necessity for Matthew to be first.

This from Richard W Gilsdorf - Holy Trinity Rector!!!

"He significantly advances the revived assault against the ultimate bastion of modern liberal biblical criticism - the sacrosanct 'dogma' of Markian priority"

Spud

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2023, 10:22:46 AM »
I'm not going to invest in some e-book on the basis that you think somehow it backs up your assertions Spud. If you want to argue this as evidence then you'll need to provide this.
It makes very interesting reading, if you change your mind. I've bought the book, not the e-book, so I can't copy and paste anything from it here (not sure if that would be legal anyway). I don't know whether his conclusion about later editors is correct. Maybe Matthew is written by one author who edited it himself. If so, the book is still useful for its analysis.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2023, 10:31:32 AM »
It makes very interesting reading, if you change your mind. I've bought the book, not the e-book, so I can't copy and paste anything from it here (not sure if that would be legal anyway). I don't know whether his conclusion about later editors is correct. Maybe Matthew is written by one author who edited it himself. If so, the book is still useful for its analysis.
Why don't you tell me something about the author Spud, as I asked.

You seem to think he is some kind of bone fide serious and independent scholar, but I can't see this from my quick googling. As you seem to be a fan of this guy and consider him to be a serious and independent scholar, perhaps you can provide some evidence for this.

Spud

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2023, 05:46:36 PM »
Why don't you tell me something about the author Spud, as I asked.
Because there is nothing online about him.

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You seem to think he is some kind of bone fide serious and independent scholar, but I can't see this from my quick googling. As you seem to be a fan of this guy and consider him to be a serious and independent scholar, perhaps you can provide some evidence for this.
What is in his books is the only evidence I know of. I decided to buy his first one (the making of Mark) after reading the online preview.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2023, 09:46:06 AM »
Because there is nothing online about him.
So how do we know whether he is a serious scholar or simply an armchair 'expert' with an agenda.

Spud

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2023, 05:33:16 PM »
So how do we know whether he is a serious scholar or simply an armchair 'expert' with an agenda.
I've just looked up Bernard Orchard, with whom Riley co-authored a book called The Order of the Synoptics: why three synoptic gospels?.Orchard was a serious biblical scholar, according to Wikipedia   This doesn't tell us Riley's credentials, but that they wrote a book together says something about him.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 05:35:30 PM by Spud »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2023, 06:37:29 PM »
I've just looked up Bernard Orchard, with whom Riley co-authored a book called The Order of the Synoptics: why three synoptic gospels?.Orchard was a serious biblical scholar, according to Wikipedia   This doesn't tell us Riley's credentials, but that they wrote a book together says something about him.
Really - looks more like a 'professional' catholic, rather than anyone with credentials as a serious independent scholar. A theologian rather than a proper bible scholar. Pretty notable that the article states "Orchard promulgated, in the face of general scholarly scepticism, the Griesbach hypothesis".

Nearly Sane

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Re: Some supernatural claims
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2023, 07:09:10 PM »
Really - looks more like a 'professional' catholic, rather than anyone with credentials as a serious independent scholar. A theologian rather than a proper bible scholar. Pretty notable that the article states "Orchard promulgated, in the face of general scholarly scepticism, the Griesbach hypothesis".
Have to admit that was my least favourite Robert Ludlum book