Author Topic: Self medication in birds  (Read 2920 times)

Sriram

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Self medication in birds
« on: November 23, 2022, 04:50:26 PM »
Hi Everyone,

Here is an  article about self medication in birds....

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/23/world/bird-self-medicates-scn-scli-intl/index.html

Shows a great degree of instinctive 'knowledge'....

Cheers.

Sriram

Nearly Sane

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2022, 05:13:52 PM »
Hi Everyone,

Here is an  article about self medication in birds....

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/11/23/world/bird-self-medicates-scn-scli-intl/index.html

Shows a great degree of instinctive 'knowledge'....

Cheers.

Sriram
You'll need to make your hypothesis clearer.

Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2022, 12:41:24 PM »

Its an observation that birds, insects and other animals self medicate. They are able to locate, identify and use a variety of substances that they don't use normally, for prevention and cure of illnesses. 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2022, 01:47:34 PM »
Its an observation that birds, insects and other animals self medicate. They are able to locate, identify and use a variety of substances that they don't use normally, for prevention and cure of illnesses.
Yes, i got that but you seemed by the use of the term 'instinctive ''knowledge'" to be talking about something further?

ETA: when you use the term 'that they don't normally use'  surely they exactly normally use?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 01:53:04 PM by Nearly Sane »

Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2022, 04:54:32 AM »


This is not about self medication but about the bird's ability to figure out how to rid the venom off the toad...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-63699884


***********

The toad's skin contains venom which it releases when threatened, causing most animals that come into contact with it to die quickly of a heart attack.

"Ibis were flipping the toads about, throwing them in the air, and people just wondered what on earth they were doing," she told the BBC.

"After this they would always either wipe the toads in the wet grass, or they would go down to a water source nearby, and they would rinse the toads out."

She believes it is evidence of a "stress, wash and repeat" method that the birds have developed to rid the toads of their toxins before swallowing them whole.

************

Nearly Sane

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2022, 05:58:54 AM »
Any reason why you have just ignored what I asked?

Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2022, 07:04:25 AM »


No hard feelings NS...  I just don't like pointless, dead end arguments. 

I am merely pointing out observations that are difficult to explain. I know Natural Selection is enough to 'explain everything' according to most of you. But I think of Natural Selection as just a metaphor. It is as bad as 'God of the gaps'.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2022, 08:17:17 AM »

No hard feelings NS...  I just don't like pointless, dead end arguments. 

I am merely pointing out observations that are difficult to explain. I know Natural Selection is enough to 'explain everything' according to most of you. But I think of Natural Selection as just a metaphor. It is as bad as 'God of the gaps'.
again, I am unsure about what you are trying to say. What do you see as hard to explain? And what are you suggesting as an explanation?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 08:38:47 AM by Nearly Sane »

Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2022, 04:52:18 AM »



I am talking of consciousness. The ability to 'know' which substance to use in which way to prevent or cure illnesses. In the other case, the intelligence to know how to get rid of toxins in the toad before imbibing it.

Enki

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2022, 10:16:05 AM »


I am talking of consciousness. The ability to 'know' which substance to use in which way to prevent or cure illnesses. In the other case, the intelligence to know how to get rid of toxins in the toad before imbibing it.

The idea that animals are conscious at least to some degree is not a new one. the general scientific consensus is that this is so. The Cambridge Declaration of 2012 emphasises that point. Indeed Darwin was of the opinion that animals would reflect many of the qualities of humans to a greater or lesser degree, not least because of evolutionary continuity. Increasingly we are able to see, examine and document behaviours which point to the conclusion that various species of animals have a sense of awareness which Descartes and the pervading Christian religious lobby of the preceding centuries denied them.
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Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2022, 04:24:39 PM »

Just want to highlight the fact that Hinduism as early as 3000 years ago (or earlier) has considered animals as just  a part of the spectrum of creation with humans beings as just the highest level of consciousness. in fact every soul is believed to evolve through repeated incarnation into different animal species before being born as human.

Even in humans, souls are believed to incarnate at different lower levels of consciousness before being born wise and saintly. The reason human birth is considered as special is because it is the level at which we can reach out and attain higher levels through  conscious intent.  Humans have the capacity to attain levels of consciousness that make further incarnations on earth unnecessary,

Just for information. 

jeremyp

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2022, 06:18:35 PM »
Just want to highlight the fact that Hinduism as early as 3000 years ago (or earlier) has considered animals as just  a part of the spectrum of creation with humans beings as just the highest level of consciousness. in fact every soul is believed to evolve through repeated incarnation into different animal species before being born as human.

Even in humans, souls are believed to incarnate at different lower levels of consciousness before being born wise and saintly. The reason human birth is considered as special is because it is the level at which we can reach out and attain higher levels through  conscious intent.  Humans have the capacity to attain levels of consciousness that make further incarnations on earth unnecessary,

Just for information.

Please refrain from posting religious superstition on the science topic.

Do you have any evidence at all for this reincarnation crap.
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Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2022, 04:59:42 AM »
« Last Edit: November 27, 2022, 07:41:36 AM by Sriram »

Enki

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2022, 10:10:42 AM »
What bugged me was that Sriram seems to have simply used a potential discussion on the link between self medication in animals leading to ideas of consciousness in animals to introduce his well known hobby horse of reincarnation which has little or nothing to do with the original subject. As I do not intend to get bogged down on the subject of reincarnation, I'll take no further part in this discussion. :)
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Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2022, 01:40:43 PM »
What bugged me was that Sriram seems to have simply used a potential discussion on the link between self medication in animals leading to ideas of consciousness in animals to introduce his well known hobby horse of reincarnation which has little or nothing to do with the original subject. As I do not intend to get bogged down on the subject of reincarnation, I'll take no further part in this discussion. :)


No one is compelling you to get bogged down in this discussion. I was asked for evidence of reincarnation and I provided it.

You talked of Christianity and I pointed out some relevant aspects of Hinduism in connection with consciousness.

jeremyp

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2022, 02:44:53 PM »
https://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_science_of_reincarnation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruL65FHeAv4

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/202112/evaluating-the-evidence-reincarnation

As Voltaire is believed to have said....why is it more surprising to be born twice than once? (or words to that effect).

You've got a few anecdotes. Oh, wow.

Now stop with your bullshit reincarnation crap. This is meant to be the science topic.
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Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2022, 04:25:16 PM »
You've got a few anecdotes. Oh, wow.

Now stop with your bullshit reincarnation crap. This is meant to be the science topic.


Why are you getting angry?!!

Enki

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2022, 08:26:48 PM »

No one is compelling you to get bogged down in this discussion.

You seem to have a problem with understanding, Sriram. Of course no one is compelling me to get bogged down, I choose not to, and furthermore it was on the subject of reincarnation, not 'this discussion'.

Quote
I was asked for evidence of reincarnation and I provided it.

And before that, in post 10, you expounded on your pet subject of reincarnation.

Quote
You talked of Christianity and I pointed out some relevant aspects of Hinduism in connection with consciousness.

Yes I referred to how Christianity briefly(less than half a sentence) as an aside to my main point that science increasingly sees animals as having some form of consciousness. However in post 10 you devoted most of your post to the Hindu idea of reincarnation for reasons known only to yourself. So I find the idea of me referring to Christianity as a justification for your attempt to get reincarnation into the discussion to be rather artificial, and especially as you made no mention of reincarnation in your preceding 5 posts. You did however mention 'consciousness' in post 8, and it is that to which I was quite reasonably responding.
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Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2022, 04:24:00 AM »


Enki....the discussion was about consciousness in animals. Reincarnation becomes relevant when we talk of the development of consciousness from animals to humans.

jeremyp.... Reincarnation is a valid hypothesis given the number of cases Jim Tucker has highlighted. Yes....they are anecdotal. That is the way research in such matters happens. You don't expect some instrument to record instances of reincarnation, do you?! 

Enki

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2022, 01:59:09 PM »
Here's a very recent scientific theory of consciousness from Professor Johnjoe McFadden

https://www.surrey.ac.uk/news/new-theory-consciousness-proposed-surrey-scientist#:~:text=Electromagnetic%20energy%20in%20the%20brain,from%20the%20University%20of%20Surrey.

Obviously one does not have to agree that it goes far enough or even that it is correct, but it would at least satisfy to some extent where consciousness arises and it would also help to explain consciousness in animals.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2022, 02:16:55 PM »

Enki....the discussion was about consciousness in animals.
Is it - I thought the OP was about animals that had particular behavioural traits that are described in the article as 'self medication', but aren't really anything of the sort as that implies conscious knowledge, but there are plenty of reasons why animals may avoid or actively seek out certain substances that are innate traits and nothing to do with 'consciousness'. Further, if this avoidance and/or seeking out trait provides a survival advantage and is heritable then evolution will run its course and select for individuals who have developed this avoidance or seeking out trait.

Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2022, 03:42:06 AM »



You guys are taking too much trouble to come up with convoluted 'explanations'. Accepting consciousness as a fundamental attribute of living things is the simplest explanation. 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2022, 08:51:51 AM »
You guys are taking too much trouble to come up with convoluted 'explanations'. Accepting consciousness as a fundamental attribute of living things is the simplest explanation.
No it isn't unless you can provide evidence that simple organisms or animals with lower neurophysiology have consciousness. And if you do we are simply back into the whole definitional debate.

So to explain these phenomena in terms of consciousness requires either definitional contortion or accepting something for which there is no evidence.

Much simpler to explain this in simple evolutionary terms, of this nature. Species x, edible matter y that is harmful/fatal (or beneficial). Some individuals of that species find that foodstuff distasteful (bitter, unpleasant etc) due to physiological variability. Those members of the species avoid edible substance y and therefore are less likely to be harmed/die. Hence more likely to survive and breed. Confers evolutionary advantage and over time the population becomes increasingly dominated by individuals whose physiology means they avoid that harmful substance.

The argument works with beneficial substances. Also works with more complex behaviours, provided they can be passed on to subsequent generations through genetic/epigenetic traits, or via learned behaviour. And, of course, learned behaviour in many species is also an important evolutionary trait.

Sriram

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2022, 09:13:56 AM »

As I have mentioned on the other thread....simply attributing our consciousness to neurophysiology is like attributing all the traits of a robot to its circuitry. It is the human using it who forms its core. If not for the human using it, the robot is just a rusting piece of junk, just as the body is just a rotting piece of flesh.   

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Self medication in birds
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2022, 09:27:24 AM »
As I have mentioned on the other thread....simply attributing our consciousness to neurophysiology is like attributing all the traits of a robot to its circuitry. It is the human using it who forms its core. If not for the human using it, the robot is just a rusting piece of junk, just as the body is just a rotting piece of flesh.
Yawn - anthropocentric nonsense. Get yourself a sense of perspective Sriram.