Author Topic: Universe Unreal?!  (Read 1125 times)

Sriram

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Universe Unreal?!
« on: November 27, 2022, 06:13:35 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a fairly short video (11 minutes) about the universe being unreal...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSAhtl7BVtE

Recent Nobel Prize winners are said to have contributed to this idea...

Cheers.

Sriram

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2022, 10:03:14 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a fairly short video (11 minutes) about the universe being unreal...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSAhtl7BVtE

Recent Nobel Prize winners are said to have contributed to this idea...

Cheers.

Sriram
That might only be true of Ricky Gervais.

Anchorman

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2022, 07:19:03 PM »
 The Turtle moves.
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Sriram

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2022, 12:47:28 PM »



It is possible that we are living an illusion. It could be like a VR world. We keep trying to understand the VR world that we are living but the real world is experienced only after we leave the world. 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2022, 01:38:00 PM »


It is possible that we are living an illusion. It could be like a VR world. We keep trying to understand the VR world that we are living but the real world is experienced only after we leave the world.
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jeremyp

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2022, 11:36:04 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a fairly short video (11 minutes) about the universe being unreal...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSAhtl7BVtE

Recent Nobel Prize winners are said to have contributed to this idea...

Cheers.

Sriram

I'm disappointed, I thought it was going to be The Matrix.
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Sriram

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2022, 01:22:53 PM »



Many of you are caught up in a old science.  Please try to come out of it and you might see the new possibilities that many young philosophers and scientists are examining.

Difficult for you I concede, but it is possible. 

Outrider

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2022, 09:35:25 AM »
Many of you are caught up in a old science.  Please try to come out of it and you might see the new possibilities that many young philosophers and scientists are examining.

Difficult for you I concede, but it is possible.

The way out of 'old science' is 'new science' not 'old woo which science already supplanted'.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Sriram

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2022, 06:00:18 AM »



What has been supplanted by science are religious myths...especially Abrahamic religion myths.

What I am talking about are secular realities that lie beyond current science.

Outrider

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2022, 09:24:17 AM »
What I am talking about are secular realities that lie beyond current science.

No. You are presuming they are realities, but you have insufficient basis to presume that precisely because any underlying phenomena are beyond current science. In the absence of a robust explanation - scientific or otherwise - you can't claim this is 'reality', it's at best an hypothesis and more often just speculation.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sriram

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2022, 09:35:21 AM »
No. You are presuming they are realities, but you have insufficient basis to presume that precisely because any underlying phenomena are beyond current science. In the absence of a robust explanation - scientific or otherwise - you can't claim this is 'reality', it's at best an hypothesis and more often just speculation.

O.


I have already pointed out enough reasons to consider them as hypotheses. If you can consider parallel universes and strings as hypotheses and discuss them in scientific forums....I can't see why these phenomena cannot be seen similarly. They have far more evidence and are more relevant to each of us.

Problem is that scientists still see such phenomena as supernatural and religion based. That is the mental block.

But science is evolving.  Seeing recent trends  in science.... in fifty or hundred years it will certainly not be the same.  There will be a new science.

BeRational

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2022, 09:42:28 AM »

I have already pointed out enough reasons to consider them as hypotheses. If you can consider parallel universes and strings as hypotheses and discuss them in scientific forums....I can't see why these phenomena cannot be seen similarly. They have far more evidence and are more relevant to each of us.

Problem is that scientists still see such phenomena as supernatural and religion based. That is the mental block.

But science is evolving.  Seeing recent trends  in science.... in fifty or hundred years it will certainly not be the same.  There will be a new science.

Science will know more (hopefully fore sure). But woo is never science.
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Outrider

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2022, 10:08:57 AM »
I have already pointed out enough reasons to consider them as hypotheses.

No, in order for it to be a hypothesis you need to be explaining how it could be tested.

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If you can consider parallel universes and strings as hypotheses and discuss them in scientific forums....I can't see why these phenomena cannot be seen similarly.

Parallel universes, to the best of my knowledge, are not considered to be an hypothesis in science as yet, although there have been a few commentaries passing around about how we might be able to look at disturbances in gravitational fields. String theory has mathematical underpinnings which could be tested and therefore is typically considered a hypothesis, although I think we don't currently have the technology to measure to the accuracy required (that's a bit beyond my wheelhouse, so I'm more than happy to be put right on that topic).

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They have far more evidence and are more relevant to each of us.

The problem is that the evidence you are citing, whilst very real, is very subjective and therefore questionable.

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Problem is that scientists still see such phenomena as supernatural and religion based. That is the mental block.

No, scientists don't see the phenomena as supernatural - people have very real experiences. What scientists don't accept is that the subjective experience of a traumatised mind is reliable, and therefore the subjective account of the experience, although consistent enough to suggest a causal link, is not presumed to be an accurate account.

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But science is evolving.  Seeing recent trends  in science.... in fifty or hundred years it will certainly not be the same.  There will be a new science.

No, there will be the same science - observe, hypothesise, test, amend the hypothesis and repeat. The findings of that science will be, probably, updated, but science will remain the same, which is why your claims will continue to be outside of science, even if they're right, because you aren't operating in a scientific manner, you are just accepting subjective accounts as an accurate assessment. I'd suggest that's, in part, because that fits in with your pre-existing 'spiritual' viewpoint, but I can't definitively prove that.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Sriram

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2022, 11:21:24 AM »

What I mean by a new science is a change in perception. A new approach of integration. The old science of natural vs supernatural...objective vs subjective....science  vs religion will go.

Our subjective world is as important as the objective world. Subjectivity is not just about imagination and delusion as many old science people might think. It is also about real experiences and real insights into the true nature of the world.   

But for that...we have to wait for the old science generation to pass and for a new generation of people with a fresh new approach to arise. Then science will find a way to investigate what people currently tend to dismiss as subjective and supernatural.

I am however seeing the beginnings of it already....happily...

Outrider

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2022, 02:29:50 PM »
What I mean by a new science is a change in perception. A new approach of integration. The old science of natural vs supernatural...objective vs subjective....science  vs religion will go.

Some of that is fine, some of it is at best questionable. New discoveries - scientific or otherwise - can bring about changes in perception, that's fine, and new approaches to integrating fields is always a possible, the cross-pollination of ideas has led to some incredible developments throughout history. The delineation between natural and supernatural, though, is sort of definitional to science: the 'supernatural' is not just that which is currently outside of science, but that which claims to be beyond the rationale of reliable cause and effect. Science vs religion is not necessarily a thing now, there are any number of religions that already work hard (to greater or lesser effect) to try to fit their beliefs around the verifiable science.

Objective vs subjective, though, does not seem like it's likely to shift in science any time soon. Virtually the entire point of the scientific method is to eradicate the subjective, from the prior assumptions through to the interpretation of phenomena, science is a structured venture to eliminate the personal elements to try to identify underlying, independent realities. If that boundary is breached, if the subjective is given weight without suitable caveats, then you haven't got science, you've got guesswork, superstition and cults.

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Our subjective world is as important as the objective world.

Arguable. It's more immediate, yes, but it's not like they're separate things - one is merely an interpretation of the other.

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Subjectivity is not just about imagination and delusion as many old science people might think.

No, it's about imperfect sensory organs, inherited and learnt cognitive biases, inevitable ignorance and blind-spots, emotional fluctuations that are part of the human experience. It's not (necessarily) an accusation to say that people's subjective understanding is questionable, it's the acceptance of an evidenced reality. People are inherently good at some things, and inherently bad at others; societies teach people to be good at some things, and that comes at the inevitable loss of capacity with other things. That's all of us.

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It is also about real experiences and real insights into the true nature of the world.

Yes. Before there can be science there has to be both phenomena, and the curiosity about those phenomena, there has to be the germ of an idea about 'why' or 'how'. But that initial guess is not the end of the story, there then has to be the hard, rigorous work of testing, updating, clarifying, and retesting that speculation until it becomes something more than just a 'you know, it could be...'   

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But for that...we have to wait for the old science generation to pass and for a new generation of people with a fresh new approach to arise.

No, we don't. We have to wait for someone to come up with a way to test these ideas or they will remain just speculation.

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Then science will find a way to investigate what people currently tend to dismiss as subjective and supernatural.

We can all wait for that - the important thing, in the meantime, is to treat it as unconfirmed speculation and not move on to complain about current science as though the future science were somehow settled.

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I am however seeing the beginnings of it already....happily...

The majority of those who practice science in the world currently do not. Which is not to say that they're right, but it is to say that it seems you don't have sufficient data to show that they're wrong.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Sriram

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2022, 05:03:06 AM »


I am talking about not taking things for granted. Scientists have discovered few things. The world does not have to limit itself to these few things. There could be lots more and not just in material terms of more galaxies, more particles and so on. I am talking of phenomena that are fundamental such as the mind for example. Or life and death.

We know nothing of the mind or of Life or death. Our knowledge about them is rudimentary and our assumptions are entirely based on simple observations. We are quite dismissive about such things and think we know all about them.

It is only now that things like the mind and consciousness are being taken seriously. Science currently has methodologies and techniques that have been useful for earlier requirements. It still does not have suitable tools to investigate such matters.

New tools and new methods need to be developed to investigate matters that are not as obvious and as easily accessible to our senses.  This is what I mean by a new science. It requires an open mind (no....brains will not fall out!) and new paths may need to be walked. This requires new people with the vision to see new possibilities.   

Also, subjective aspects should not be disregarded as merely activities within individual brains. There could be an entire world inside. These are real phenomena that need to be taken seriously. 

Outrider

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2022, 09:22:50 AM »
I am talking about not taking things for granted.

Except that your uncritical acceptance of woo is doing exactly that.

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Scientists have discovered few things.

Really? Few?

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The world does not have to limit itself to these few things.

I don't know if you notice, but scientists don't seem to think that science has finished.

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There could be lots more and not just in material terms of more galaxies, more particles and so on. I am talking of phenomena that are fundamental such as the mind for example. Or life and death.

Scientists all over the world are working on these exact issues, pushing at the boundaries between what we do and don't know.

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We know nothing of the mind or of Life or death.

We currently don't know everything, we know more than we used to, and we're learning more all the time. What we don't have is any alternative sources of reliable knowledge - we have ideas and possibilities, but no reliable way of assessing those. If it proves that these are somehow beyond science's capability - which I don't think is the case, but for the sake of argument - you'd still need something more robust than 'it feels right' to consider any alternatives as actual knowledge.

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Our knowledge about them is rudimentary and our assumptions are entirely based on simple observations.

Our understanding is based on some of the most complicated observations we can make, on everything from fMRI scans of brain activity, charting of neural network developments and massive data sets of human activity.

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We are quite dismissive about such things and think we know all about them.

No. You are quite dismissive of those findings, and the people doing them, and science in general, without appearing to fully appreciate what it is, what it's done, and the possibilities that still await.

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It is only now that things like the mind and consciousness are being taken seriously.

It's only in relatively recent history that we've had the underlying understanding and information to begin to investigate.

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Science currently has methodologies and techniques that have been useful for earlier requirements. It still does not have suitable tools to investigate such matters.

It has some, and is developing more as we understand more. The alternatives to science have had no methodologies for centuries, and were therefore not even useful before, they do not appear to have any tools now (which is why they keep trying to steal scientific concepts like quantum indeterminacy and turn into woo) and there is no real prospect that they're developing anything reliable in the future.

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New tools and new methods need to be developed to investigate matters that are not as obvious and as easily accessible to our senses.

Science graduated beyond the limitations of our senses with radiation, gravity, telescopes, microscopes, magnets and who know what else centuries ago. New tools, or at least refinements of current tools, probably are required, but so far as I can see it's only science that's attempting to define what those tools might be and how they might work. You're not developing new tools, you're just spouting 'whataboutery' and presuming that old ideas must have validity because... um...

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This is what I mean by a new science. It requires an open mind (no....brains will not fall out!) and new paths may need to be walked.

Open minds, new 'paths', increased understanding, multi-disciplinary understandings, cross-pollination of ideas - this is not 'new' science, this is what science has always been.

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This requires new people with the vision to see new possibilities.

And a methodology to verify it.   

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Also, subjective aspects should not be disregarded as merely activities within individual brains.

Not necessarily, of course, but if on investigation there is reason to think that they may be unreliable in certain circumstances then you follow where the evidence leads.

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There could be an entire world inside.

There could well be, but counter-intuitively you won't find it by staring at your own navel.

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These are real phenomena that need to be taken seriously.

They are being taken seriously. Some of the best and brightest minds in the world are working on these very problems - you need to take them seriously and stop dismissing their work just because they don't have an answer you like.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

jeremyp

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Re: Universe Unreal?!
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2022, 12:15:46 PM »

I have already pointed out enough reasons to consider them as hypotheses.
That's only the first step. Next you need to compute the consequences of the hypothesis and then compare your predictions against reality. If they do not match reality, they are wrong. You are a long way from having anything scientific to discuss.

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If you can consider parallel universes and strings as hypotheses and discuss them in scientific forums....I can't see why these phenomena cannot be seen similarly. They have far more evidence and are more relevant to each of us.
People are actively trying to figure out ways to test string theory. So they are further along the science route than you are with your woo.

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