Author Topic: Less than half the population in England and Wales is Christian  (Read 6161 times)

Gordon

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Re: Less than half the population in England and Wales is Christian
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2022, 01:19:48 PM »
I think it's wrong to liken something like God, to something like scottish nationalism.

Smashing - so who is making this bizarre comparison?

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We know the nation is failing since it has thrown up Brexit and Boris Johnson and the like. There are relationship difficulties all round.. Pubs are closing, Hospital wards are closing, what isn't closing down? The land of irreligious milk and honey failed to materialise.

So, not a good advert for this all-loving and omnipotent 'God' of yours then.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2022, 01:25:36 PM »
I think you can be in a state of not knowing because you are not convinced either way.
Atheism or theism demand commitment and a leap of faith. You have struck out on your chosen path with conviction it seems.
Why did you switch belief in BR's post for knowledge?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2022, 01:29:10 PM »
Why did you switch belief in BR's post for knowledge?
If it helps.....insert it yourself

BeRational

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2022, 01:30:46 PM »
I think you can be in a state of not knowing because you are not convinced either way.
Atheism or theism demand commitment and a leap of faith. You have struck out on your chosen path with conviction it seems.

Agreed, but as you say the subject was Belief not knowledge.

You can vasilate between believing one day and not the next, but at any one time you either believe or you don't. There is no halfway position.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Less than half the population in England and Wales is Christian
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2022, 01:31:46 PM »
Smashing - so who is making this bizarre comparison?
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It's you who are equating God with something that's failing

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2022, 01:36:18 PM »
Agreed, but as you say the subject was Belief not knowledge.

I'd have to ask you about the metaphysical mechanics of being an agnostic atheist.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2022, 01:49:27 PM »
If it helps.....insert it yourself
ok then. You are bored with sexually assaulting children so you decided to lie on here.

BeRational

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2022, 02:04:33 PM »
I'd have to ask you about the metaphysical mechanics of being an agnostic atheist.

You are an atheist.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2022, 03:14:51 PM »
You are an atheist.
What's going on? seems like a collective malfunction in the atheist central brain and self control circuits...i'll come back when the technician has been.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2022, 03:30:55 PM »
What's going on? seems like a collective malfunction in the atheist central brain and self control circuits...i'll come back when the technician has been.
Is that when you have stopped screwing children?

Outrider

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2022, 04:08:19 PM »
I think you can be in a state of not knowing because you are not convinced either way.

I agree that there is a state of 'undecided' - it's just a shame that it's been misnamed as 'agnostic' which already has a meaning.

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Atheism or theism demand commitment and a leap of faith.

No, atheism doesn't require a 'leap of faith' - if you're a gnostic theist then you're of the opinion that you've not made a leap of faith, either.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2022, 04:17:31 PM »
I agree that there is a state of 'undecided' - it's just a shame that it's been misnamed as 'agnostic' which already has a meaning.

No, atheism doesn't require a 'leap of faith' - if you're a gnostic theist then you're of the opinion that you've not made a leap of faith, either.

O.
There's a state of 'undecided' between whether you believe in a god or not? How would that work?

jeremyp

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2022, 05:03:23 PM »
I thought it was a binary position. You either believe in a god or gods or you don't. Agnostic is not inbetween as there is no inbetween?

Believing in God and having a religion are not synonymous.

Also, I think there are people who are undecided about whether there is a god or not. Would you class them as atheists? I probably would, but I'm undecided.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Less than half the population in England and Wales is Christian
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2022, 05:33:23 PM »
Some religions observe at home or at work. I’ve worked with colleagues who brought prayer mats in. And then there is praying and being in church...which only happens for many one day a week.
It depends then how you are defining religion and should it be the non religious or the religious who get to do that?
Oh dear the tired old desperate 'believing but not belonging' non-sense. The notion that some apologists try to use to suggest that although church attendance is dropping, belief is alive and well with people praying in their homes rather than going to church. Demonstrated to be completely untrue by a number of studies. All aspects of religiosity - nominal affiliation (e.g. census christians), belief (e.g. whether people actually believe the tenets of christianity, importance of religion etc) and belonging (actual participation in organised religious activities) are declining at a similar rate.

You do realise Vlad that for every claimed home prayer, I can trade you a church attender who doesn't belief a word of it but goes along out of tradition, or to chat with friends afterwards, or because they like the music.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 05:35:25 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Less than half the population in England and Wales is Christian
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2022, 05:39:33 PM »
The Roman Catholic church in particular has seen several rises and falls throughout its history.  It would be wrong to presume that the current decline in Christianity will continue on a downward trend.
There you go AB - scroll down to the graph. Obviously ignore the final point as this is covid affected.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bishops-tell-catholics-to-end-wfh-thats-worshipping-from-home-mw3qjxrrd

Looks to be a continuous downward trend since 1960 - and given that these are absolute numbers and the population has grown the decline in % of the population terms is even greater. And as I mentioned previously if you understand why the decline is happening you will recognise that it will necessarily continue for decades, unless there is massive immigration of mass-attending catholics.

Maeght

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2022, 09:33:14 PM »
I think you can be in a state of not knowing because you are not convinced either way.
Atheism or theism demand commitment and a leap of faith. You have struck out on your chosen path with conviction it seems.

I see it as a statement of your position on the existence of God. if you believe in that then you are a theist, if you don't you are an atheist, so no leap of faith or conviction. I know that the definition of atheism is disputed though. The unsure position is surely that sometimes you do believe, sometimes you don't. At any point in time you are atheist or theist but you don't hold to a particular position come what may but it changes.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2022, 09:15:26 AM »
I thought it was a binary position. You either believe in a god or gods or you don't. Agnostic is not inbetween as there is no inbetween?
Probably is, and for those that think about it more deeply atheism and agnosticism relate to different things, belief and knowledge respectively. But most people won't have given this the kind of thought those on this board have. In more general parlance agnosticism is don't know or don't care.

But actually all this is irrelevant - the census asks about religion, not about belief in god.

BeRational

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2022, 09:20:34 AM »
What's going on? seems like a collective malfunction in the atheist central brain and self control circuits...i'll come back when the technician has been.

What's difficult?

If you are an agnostic atheist, then you are an atheist.
If you are an agnostic theist, then you are a theist.

The gnostic bit is about a claim of knowledge so completely irrelevant.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2022, 09:26:48 AM »
What's difficult?

If you are an agnostic atheist, then you are an atheist.
If you are an agnostic theist, then you are a theist.

The gnostic bit is about a claim of knowledge so completely irrelevant.
Absolutely - and unless we are a bit dim, or really arrogant, then we are all agnostic - none of us actually know whether god exists or not (hence the need for belief/faith). So we are all really agnostic theists (don't know but believe god exists) or agnostic atheists (don't know but do not believe god exists).

I suspect there are some people who are on the fence on belief, either because they vacillate and/or are genuinely uncertain regarding their belief or not, or more likely because they don't care and don't really consider the matter at all.

Outrider

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2022, 09:27:23 AM »
I'd have to ask you about the metaphysical mechanics of being an agnostic atheist.

You have a claim of god(s) that I find unconvincing, therefore I'm an atheist. The 'metaphysical' struggle to disprove god(s) is well documented, so in the absence of absolute knowledge I remain agnostic.

This really isn't very difficult to grasp, I would have thought.

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Outrider

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2022, 09:59:53 AM »
There's a state of 'undecided' between whether you believe in a god or not? How would that work?

Some people operate in a more 'vague' headspace than I do - it might be that from day to day the balance of evidence seems to waver, or it might be that both sides sound convincing when they're listening to them, and they therefore aren't that clear on their own thinking.

As some with a very neurodivergent family, I'm aware that we not only all have a different set of beliefs and understandings, but that we don't all operate on the same mental architecture - whilst I'm quite black and white in my thinking, I know people who are far more ready to accept a sort of internal grey area, and I can imagine that this is one area that might fall within some of those grey spaces.

I don't necessarily understand it, but I can accept the possibility.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2022, 11:20:49 AM »
Some people operate in a more 'vague' headspace than I do - it might be that from day to day the balance of evidence seems to waver, or it might be that both sides sound convincing when they're listening to them, and they therefore aren't that clear on their own thinking.
That may be true for some people. But I think there are plenty of people who simply don't give it a second thought - so they really have no idea whether they belief in god as they've never really thought about it, and frankly don't care as the whole notion seems completely irrelevant to their lives.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Less than half the population in England and Wales is Christian
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2022, 01:59:12 PM »
I tend to go with the Copson/Dawkins analysis on nominality and they have been successful in persuading a more honest Census response.

But what that might mean is that they may have had the larger fraction of the new non religious already.
Nope - that isn't the reason as other studies using a less leading question and therefore without any need for a campaign for honest response have found similar declines (albeit typically with a greater proportion of non religious) e.g. BSAS.

Here is a hint:

1. Are the oldest generation more religious than the youngest generation.
2. Are the oldest generation more likely to die than the youngest generation
3. Do people typically become more or less religious as they get older.

I suspect questions 1 and 2 will be obvious to you Vlad. I suspect you will make a rookie error on question 3 as you misinterpret the explanation for your answers to questions 1 and 2.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Less than half the population in England and Wales is Christian
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2022, 10:39:29 PM »
Nope - that isn't the reason as other studies using a less leading question and therefore without any need for a campaign for honest response have found similar declines (albeit typically with a greater proportion of non religious) e.g. BSAS.

Here is a hint:

1. Are the oldest generation more religious than the youngest generation.
2. Are the oldest generation more likely to die than the youngest generation
3. Do people typically become more or less religious as they get older.

I suspect questions 1 and 2 will be obvious to you Vlad. I suspect you will make a rookie error on question 3 as you misinterpret the explanation for your answers to questions 1 and 2.
I think I've said I prefer your prediction that only 6% will respond as christian in a few census time rather than JeremyP's even more dismal but unlikely 0%.

However the census asks about religious affiliation so the 6% is going to be bolstered by nominals and believers but non attenders ( people with Kids, People with Jobs, people just too shagged out at the end of the week ) which segues us into your question of the old and the young.

Anecdotely i've always known  elderly people returning to church, widows and the like since there is guaranteed company and i've known people return with age because they have thought about mortality and what not. Take away social services and elderly care and I think you may find that people will drift back to churches. Remember, you are talking about sociological surveys and giving them the predictive power of pure science

As for the young, I think they are a constant surprise so I don't think we can ascribe social surveys the predictive power you are giving them.

Finally, triumphalism on the part of anti religionists is a thing. I would move you have it, JeremyP has done it with his predicted no one will be a christian and Simon Jenkins of the Garden who, at 46% of census responders identify as Christian has suggested that the church hand all churches over to local councils. That is ideology smuggled in under the guise of spun statistic.

But then Jenkins knows that churches are often refuges in times when the state lets people down and wants to nationalise and secularise hope although we know that the councils would shut the churches down like libraries and other utilities and sell them off for houses

I agree that there is a decline in christianity both in this country and else where However it is a very British decline, alongside that of health provision, politics, pubs, giving a shit about the number of people who died of Covid. I understand though that ''The young voted for Matt Hancock'' on I'm a celebrity get me out of here.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Less than half the UK population is Christian
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2022, 10:48:31 PM »
That may be true for some people. But I think there are plenty of people who simply don't give it a second thought - so they really have no idea whether they belief in god as they've never really thought about it, and frankly don't care as the whole notion seems completely irrelevant to their lives.
I think they are know as apatheists. I understand they are not interested in identifying as atheists or humanists etc. Not sure if they co relate with the people who aren't bothered about politics, want that to just go away and think they are all as bad as each other

As the man said people are identifying less with religion but aren't showing willingness to embrace what Richard Dawkins has to offer.