Author Topic: Religions have succeeded  (Read 65138 times)

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1200 on: February 02, 2023, 05:18:55 PM »
Seb,

Quote
If you get a straight answer to that, I'll have to start drinking again!

I already have!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1201 on: February 02, 2023, 05:58:28 PM »
Vlad,

FFS. Do you or do you not think your “experience” of an “encounter” with “god” was evidence (albeit not of the empirical sort apparently) for there being an actual objective god that you actually objectively encountered, or is it just a “true for me only” subjective belief narrative that you happen to find persuasive?

I’ll make it even simpler for you: do you think your experience was evidence for a factually real god or just for an internally conceptualised one?
My position is I had an encounter with God. I cannot produce empirical evidence of this. Do I think I am reasonable to conclude this? Yes through the principle of sufficient reason. Is God true for everyone? Yes I believe he must necessarily be.

Now can we have empirical evidence of your philosophical empiricism. In other words what object can you show me? can you bring forth your philosophical empiricism so we can feel it, touch it, smell it, Tasssssssssste it, caress it , run our fingers along it's sleak existential contours, ohhhhhhhyeeeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhh!....or are you just reifying here?
 

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1202 on: February 02, 2023, 06:04:56 PM »
My position is I had an encounter with God. I cannot produce empirical evidence of this. Do I think I am reasonable to conclude this? Yes through the principle of sufficient reason. Is God true for everyone? Yes I believe he must necessarily be.
A belief then. We got there at last!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1203 on: February 02, 2023, 06:11:59 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
My position is I had an encounter with God. I cannot produce empirical evidence of this. Do I think I am reasonable to conclude this? Yes through the principle of sufficient reason. Is God true for everyone? Yes I believe he must necessarily be.

So you think your experience is evidence for an objectively real god who’s “true for everyone”, but not the empirical sort of evidence? Is that right?

Quote
Now can we have empirical evidence of your philosophical empiricism. In other words what object can you show me? can you bring forth your philosophical empiricism so we can feel it, touch it, smell it, Tasssssssssste it, caress it , run our fingers along it's sleak existential contours, ohhhhhhhyeeeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhhhh!....or are you just reifying here?

“Empirical evidence of your philosophical empiricism” when “my” philosophical empiricism is the one in the definition you posted has already been provided. If you want to abandon that definition though and return to your straw man one of absolutes then you’re all on your own about that.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1204 on: February 02, 2023, 06:14:30 PM »
A belief then. We got there at last!
No Sebastian....YOU got there at last.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1205 on: February 02, 2023, 06:17:18 PM »
Vlad,

So you think your experience is evidence for an objectively real god who’s “true for everyone”, but not the empirical sort of evidence? Is that right?

“Empirical evidence of your philosophical empiricism” when “my” philosophical empiricism is the one in the definition you posted has already been provided. If you want to abandon that definition though and return to your straw man one of absolutes then you’re all on your own about that.   
For goodness sake Hillslide, give us empirical evidence for your philosophical empiricism of whatever source and stop dithering around.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1206 on: February 02, 2023, 06:23:47 PM »
No Sebastian....YOU got there at last.
Not with much help from you until very recently.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1207 on: February 02, 2023, 06:27:12 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
For goodness sake Hillslide, give us empirical evidence for your philosophical empiricism of whatever source and stop dithering around.

What again? My philosophical theory is that people who jump out of windows will more likely than not hit the deck shortly afterwards. My empirical evidence for that probabilistic statement is to chuck a sample set of people out of windows, to investigate the results and to draw thereafter the conclusion that people who jump out of windows will indeed more likely than not hit the deck shortly afterwards. And that's called "knowledge".

Note that no part of this evidence is attempted to support a different claim, namely that people will necessarily always hit the deck at all - but that's not something the definition of PE you posted requires or entails.         
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1208 on: February 02, 2023, 06:27:54 PM »


“Empirical evidence of your philosophical empiricism” when “my” philosophical empiricism is the one in the definition you posted has already been provided.   
That's the one, where's the empirical evidence for it or are you suggesting there's another type of evidence?Do tell us what that is.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1209 on: February 02, 2023, 06:30:17 PM »
There is only one God so it has to be that one.
But Vlad, that is only your belief, other beliefs in god or gods are available.
Who's definition of god or gods can I possibly go forward with in this process.
After all some none or all of them might be incorrect (including yours!).
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19417
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1210 on: February 02, 2023, 06:31:28 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
That's the one, where's the empirical evidence for it or are you suggesting there's another type of evidence?Do tell us what that is.

I already have.

Back to the point though (as you just dodged it): do you think your "experience" of an "encounter" with "god" is evidence of a non-empirical sort that should therefore be taken seriously by anyone else?   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1211 on: February 02, 2023, 06:38:15 PM »
Vlad,

I already have.

Back to the point though (as you just dodged it): do you think your "experience" of an "encounter" with "god" is evidence of a non-empirical sort that should therefore be taken seriously by anyone else?   
What, there is overwhelming evidence that can be observed because it's all around us? What about the parts of the universe we don't have evidence for?
It seems you are saying the whole is just like the part we can see. You can add the fallacy of composition to your hypocrisy of demanding empirical evidence then not providing it.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4340
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1212 on: February 02, 2023, 06:41:12 PM »
A belief then. We got there at last!
Did it take, what, 20 years? Or more?
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1213 on: February 02, 2023, 06:51:06 PM »
But Vlad, that is only your belief, other beliefs in god or gods are available.
Who's definition of god or gods can I possibly go forward with in this process.
After all some none or all of them might be incorrect (including yours!).
No, it's not belief that you can only have one necessary entity. It's logic.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1214 on: February 02, 2023, 06:57:44 PM »
But Vlad, that is only your belief, other beliefs in god or gods are available.
Who's definition of god or gods can I possibly go forward with in this process.
After all some none or all of them might be incorrect (including yours!).
You seem to be betting the house on all of them being incorrect.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1215 on: February 02, 2023, 07:34:39 PM »
Vlad,

What again? My philosophical theory is that people who jump out of windows will more likely than not hit the deck shortly afterwards. My empirical evidence for that probabilistic statement is to chuck a sample set of people out of windows, to investigate the results and to draw thereafter the conclusion that people who jump out of windows will indeed more likely than not hit the deck shortly afterwards. And that's called "knowledge".

Note that no part of this evidence is attempted to support a different claim, namely that people will necessarily always hit the deck at all - but that's not something the definition of PE you posted requires or entails.         
Were not asking for one theory, though we are asking whether this method for getting evidence can get the evidence for philosophical empiricism and by the looks of it it can't apart from confusing methodological empiricism with philosophical mechanism.. Sorry, you'll have to try harder or own up to there not being any.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1216 on: February 02, 2023, 07:42:29 PM »
No, it's not belief that you can only have one necessary entity. It's logic.
Sorry, necessary entity?
I thought you were talking about the god that you believe in?
Which is it?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1217 on: February 02, 2023, 07:43:05 PM »
You seem to be betting the house on all of them being incorrect.
I'm not betting a bent penny on anything!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14483
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1218 on: February 02, 2023, 09:29:23 PM »
This is a simplistic, incorrect interpretation of the motivations of the 9/11 attackers. They did not wake up one morning and say God or the Quran said to fly a plane into a building. They rationalised it as an act of revenge for America attacking them first.  Bin Laden's language has religious terminology but the reasoning is no different to America stating they bombed Hiroshima because Japan attacked them first or Putin saying he is attacking Ukraine because he thinks his land, Russia, is under attack from NATO. These motivations would remain whether they were Muslim or atheist.

I'm not suggesting that they just had an instantaneous religious conversion, and I agree that it's against a convoluted backdrop, but the explicit claims of the group responsible were that it was a religious activity. And that's not unique to Islam, that's exactly the same as the explicitly religious motivations for at least some of the Crusaders during the Middle Ages, to pull a Christian example.

Whether the claim that it was partially, largely or entirely a religious expression is important in the broader sense, but for the purposes of what it did to the Western (and American in particular) perception of religion when it was depicted as such it doesn't really matter very much. 

Quote
Western soldiers are called to bomb people in other countries as part of their patriotic duty or because it is in their country's national interests or because they are told that their country or way of life is under threat, so being religious didn't cause 9/11.

Religion, in part, along with racism and nationalism, fomented the geopolitics that led to all the precursors: Soviets and then the West in Afghanistan; the West in Kuwait to oppose Iraq; the West's interference in Iran; even back to the debacle of handing Palestine over to the new Jewish State after the 2nd world war. Religion was a part, at least, of the response that included 9/11, and it doesn't matter if it was a large or small part, because it brought to the attention of the West that religion was not necessarily the inconsequential social club that it had become to them, it could still be visceral and profoundly motivating - for good or ill.

It was in the wake of that realisation that the 'New Atheist' movement gained traction.

Quote
You are looking at the wrong bogeyman if you are blaming religion - you could just as easily say the problem is the existence of nation states or government or private ownership of land or money or resources or political parties or foreign policy.

For me, personally, I think that Islam was a contributory factor; in particular, the (I think it's Wahabist?) particular 'hard-line' Islam that is espoused by Isis and the Taliban which takes such an absolute and authoritarian stance that's so at odds with Western values. Nation states are not a necessity, in theory, there are other ways of arranging groups of people (indeed, at least some of the issues in Africa and the middle-East come from European colonial powers implement 'nation state' political boundaries into cultures that operated as overlapping tribal and cultural diaspora).

Nation States, though, are not pitched as absolute - you can revolt against the ruling class, you can changes the laws of land ownership, you can transfer ownership of money or resources in any number of ways. Religion, though - in particular the Abrahamic religions which are so deeply entrenched in all this - pitch themselves as inviolable, sacred and beyond question, even whilst they violate, desecrate and question each other. Religious claims are categorically different from the other concepts that you mention, and therefore pose different problems and threats. 

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8952
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1219 on: February 02, 2023, 10:52:46 PM »
I'm not suggesting that they just had an instantaneous religious conversion, and I agree that it's against a convoluted backdrop, but the explicit claims of the group responsible were that it was a religious activity.
I'm not sure what you mean - could you give me an example of a claim that it was a religious activity. As far as I can tell, it was the kind of activity that happens in any conflict. Bin Laden apparently claimed he got the idea for hitting the US Twin Towers after seeing the aftermath of Israel's 1982 invasion of Beirut where Israel fired missiles into apartment tower blocks in Beirut, killing many civilians.
Quote
And that's not unique to Islam, that's exactly the same as the explicitly religious motivations for at least some of the Crusaders during the Middle Ages, to pull a Christian example.
I don't know enough about the Crusades to comment, but they were not a recent event so it's probably better to focus on recent geo-political events. I don't see hitting infrastructure and destroying buildings, shock and awe tactics as something that is unique to religion - it's just what happens in armed conflict between people because a spectacle like that will undermine the enemy's morale.
Quote
Whether the claim that it was partially, largely or entirely a religious expression is important in the broader sense, but for the purposes of what it did to the Western (and American in particular) perception of religion when it was depicted as such it doesn't really matter very much.
Yes I agree that including religious rhetoric in what was essentially a turf war over oil would have sparked the conflation of religion and terrorism. But it was the media and politicians' narratives that fanned the flames and left some people with a view that terrorism and religion were inextricably linked, This was despite non-religious left or right-wing nationalist terrorism being quite common in the 1970s and 1980s. 

Quote
Religion, in part, along with racism and nationalism, fomented the geopolitics that led to all the precursors: Soviets and then the West in Afghanistan; the West in Kuwait to oppose Iraq; the West's interference in Iran; even back to the debacle of handing Palestine over to the new Jewish State after the 2nd world war. Religion was a part, at least, of the response that included 9/11, and it doesn't matter if it was a large or small part, because it brought to the attention of the West that religion was not necessarily the inconsequential social club that it had become to them, it could still be visceral and profoundly motivating - for good or ill.

It was in the wake of that realisation that the 'New Atheist' movement gained traction.

For me, personally, I think that Islam was a contributory factor; in particular, the (I think it's Wahabist?) particular 'hard-line' Islam that is espoused by Isis and the Taliban which takes such an absolute and authoritarian stance that's so at odds with Western values. Nation states are not a necessity, in theory, there are other ways of arranging groups of people (indeed, at least some of the issues in Africa and the middle-East come from European colonial powers implement 'nation state' political boundaries into cultures that operated as overlapping tribal and cultural diaspora).

Nation States, though, are not pitched as absolute - you can revolt against the ruling class, you can changes the laws of land ownership, you can transfer ownership of money or resources in any number of ways. Religion, though - in particular the Abrahamic religions which are so deeply entrenched in all this - pitch themselves as inviolable, sacred and beyond question, even whilst they violate, desecrate and question each other. Religious claims are categorically different from the other concepts that you mention, and therefore pose different problems and threats. 

O.
Anyone can claim that something is inviolable, sacred and beyond question - and no one has to believe them or go along with it. You get that it's individual people right? For example, marriage is not intrinsically abusive, but individual husbands and wives might be abusive and control their spouse.

People often ask why people stay in abusive marriages or relationships and the same question could apply to people who remain part of a religious community who are abusing and threatening them with divine retribution if they do not follow orders. So religion isn't the problem but the way some religious people behave is.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1220 on: February 03, 2023, 07:33:46 AM »
Sorry, necessary entity?
I thought you were talking about the god that you believe in?
Which is it?
Seb, you are being very interrogative, read up about the Milgram experiment and then reflect on where your's and Bluehillside's Herr Flick and Von schmallhausen act has got you.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33054
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1221 on: February 03, 2023, 08:08:05 AM »
I'm not suggesting that they just had an instantaneous religious conversion, and I agree that it's against a convoluted backdrop, but the explicit claims of the group responsible were that it was a religious activity. And that's not unique to Islam, that's exactly the same as the explicitly religious motivations for at least some of the Crusaders during the Middle Ages, to pull a Christian example.

Whether the claim that it was partially, largely or entirely a religious expression is important in the broader sense, but for the purposes of what it did to the Western (and American in particular) perception of religion when it was depicted as such it doesn't really matter very much. 

Religion, in part, along with racism and nationalism, fomented the geopolitics that led to all the precursors: Soviets and then the West in Afghanistan; the West in Kuwait to oppose Iraq; the West's interference in Iran; even back to the debacle of handing Palestine over to the new Jewish State after the 2nd world war. Religion was a part, at least, of the response that included 9/11, and it doesn't matter if it was a large or small part, because it brought to the attention of the West that religion was not necessarily the inconsequential social club that it had become to them, it could still be visceral and profoundly motivating - for good or ill.

It was in the wake of that realisation that the 'New Atheist' movement gained traction.

For me, personally, I think that Islam was a contributory factor; in particular, the (I think it's Wahabist?) particular 'hard-line' Islam that is espoused by Isis and the Taliban which takes such an absolute and authoritarian stance that's so at odds with Western values. Nation states are not a necessity, in theory, there are other ways of arranging groups of people (indeed, at least some of the issues in Africa and the middle-East come from European colonial powers implement 'nation state' political boundaries into cultures that operated as overlapping tribal and cultural diaspora).

Nation States, though, are not pitched as absolute - you can revolt against the ruling class, you can changes the laws of land ownership, you can transfer ownership of money or resources in any number of ways. Religion, though - in particular the Abrahamic religions which are so deeply entrenched in all this - pitch themselves as inviolable, sacred and beyond question, even whilst they violate, desecrate and question each other. Religious claims are categorically different from the other concepts that you mention, and therefore pose different problems and threats. 

O.
And this reflects another New Atheist trait, Believing fundamentally that all people of religion are a threat to them, even as someone once said the old lady who sits
on the back pew on Sunday. Where that ended up was Dawkins becoming the Alf Garnett of Atheism and Sam Harris and his pre-emptive nuclear strike threat.

Do you think then there is a misplaced cultural fear of religion at play here?
 
Meanwhile I think we make light and/or little of the fear of moslem communities in more secular countries like France and the reports of fear leading some Jewish british to have their bags packed in the event the Tories were defeated at the last election.

The answer of course here is dialogue but then there is of course great fear abroad anyway. Unfortunately the New atheists are in no place to offer this as New atheism is confrontational by nature vis this message board.
 

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1222 on: February 03, 2023, 08:28:32 AM »
Dicky, any chance of you explaining this?
Vlad you are being very interrogative, read up about the Milgram experiment and then reflect on where your's and Bluehillside's Herr Flick and Von schmallhausen act has got you
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7698
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1223 on: February 03, 2023, 08:36:36 AM »
Seb, you are being very interrogative, read up about the Milgram experiment and then reflect on where your's and Bluehillside's Herr Flick and Von schmallhausen act has got you.
Vlad you are being very evasive.
It is impossible to move on with this process without the relevant accurate information.
The fact that you are unwilling to provide it suggests to me that you are aware of the impossibility of the task yet will draw it out as long as possible in the hope that I might give up.
If you want to stop now it's ok I won't think any less of you than I already do!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

ProfessorDavey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17434
Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #1224 on: February 03, 2023, 08:45:52 AM »
And this reflects another New Atheist trait, Believing fundamentally that all people of religion are a threat to them, even as someone once said the old lady who sits
on the back pew on Sunday. Where that ended up was Dawkins becoming the Alf Garnett of Atheism and Sam Harris and his pre-emptive nuclear strike threat.
You just cannot help yourself, can you Vlad. I mean if there was ever a case of pot and kettle this is it.

So apparently the atheists here think all people of religion are a threat - news to me, I'm married to one. Yet you try to demonstrate this by basically indicating that you think atheists are a threat. Surely you can see the muddled thinking here.

If there is anyone on this MB who seems to have an irrational view that all people of a particular faith/lack of faith group represent a threat it is you Vlad, with you irrational view that atheists are a threat and your bizarre obsession with a few academic philosophers and biologists who you see somehow as akin to mass murderers. If you want atheist bogeymen who were mass murderers there are a few (Stalin, Pol Pot to name a couple), not that I think their atheism was their driving philosophy. But Dawkins, Harris - I mean, get a life Vlad.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 08:54:25 AM by ProfessorDavey »