Religions have succeeded

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Religions have been receiving lot of flak from all sides.....but in reality they have been a huge success. They have succeeded in uniting the world and in providing a common goal.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/religions-have-suceeded/

Just some thoughts.

Cheers

Sriram

[Gordon]

Just no - for millenia they have been a prime cause of conflicts, the suppression of women, outright prejudice and the maintenance of ignorance through undue social and political influence.

Thankfully, where I am, as confirmined by surveys, religion is in decline - but elsewhere, such as what the Taliban are up to in Afghanisatan right now as regards the education and employments of girls and women, some forms of religion clearly remain a scourge.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just no - for millenia they have been a prime cause of conflicts, the suppression of women, outright prejudice and the maintenance of ignorance through undue social and political influence.

Thankfully, where I am, as confirmined by surveys, religion is in decline - but elsewhere, such as what the Taliban are up to in Afghanisatan right now as regards the education and employments of girls and women, some forms of religion clearly remain a scourge.

The UK is an example of an increasingly secular society which has many indicators that life is getting worse.
Campaigning atheists e.g. those who post here have been observed to equate bad with religion. Celebrity atheists such as Pinker have equated the enlightenment with progress and commerce which has caused global warming and species extinction.

[Nearly Sane]

I know you are a fan of reincarnation but...

https://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=15021.msg711755#msg711755


https://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=11174.msg569339#msg569339

[Outrider]

The UK is an example of an increasingly secular society which has many indicators that life is getting worse.

Like what? Life expectancy, infant mortality, educational outcomes, access to communication and travel, moves towards more social equity? It's not finished, obviously, but the trend is towards improvement.

Celebrity atheists such as Pinker have equated the enlightenment with progress and commerce which has caused global warming and species extinction.

Human expansion has been causing extinctions since long before the Enlightenment, although it has been accelerating, and climate change is a new concern. Those are pressing concerns, but they are the result of previous successes in food production, economic development, improved medical outcomes and a reduction in violent conflicts which has seen significantly more people surviving to adulthood and old age than was previously the case.

You can, rightly, see climate change as a worrying development, but to cite it out of context with the marvels that have led to it is just cherry-picking.

O.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

They have succeeded in uniting the world and in providing a common goal.

You're joking right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

[jeremyp]

Hi everyone,

Religions have been receiving lot of flak from all sides.....but in reality they have been a huge success. They have succeeded in uniting the world and in providing a common goal.

this is a joke right?

[Sriram]

Read the article patiently without knee jerk reactions and you'll understand my point of view. 

Thanks NS for digging up the posts that I had forgotten.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Read the article patiently without knee jerk reactions and you'll understand my point of view. 

Thanks NS for digging up the posts that I had forgotten.

The "article" appears to be a series of poorly reasoned declarations (did you fall asleep leaning on the exclamation mark key?). Religions have caused and continue to cause many wars, invasions and sundry miseries. Their effect has been largely to divide, not to unite. Look at the link I gave you.

How anyone would calculate the net good vs the net harm religions have done is anyone's guess, but to deny that huge harm had been done in their name would be dishonest to put it mildly.       

[ProfessorDavey]

Sriram,

The "article" appears to be a series of poorly reasoned declarations (did you fall asleep leaning on the exclamation mark key?). Religions have caused and continue to cause many wars, invasions and sundry miseries. Their effect has been largely to divide, not to unite. Look at the link I gave you.

Absolutely - religion has been a major, perhaps the major, source of conflict over the centuries. And it continues to be a key factor in many conflicts across the globe.

But if we become a little more local - I fail to see much 'uniting' rather than 'dividing' amongst adherents of the most widely followed religion in the UK, namely christianity. So in my local area, presuming it is fairly typical, perhaps 5% of local people might be active christians who attend worship. Are these people all united - not a bit of it. Within easy walking distance of my house I can think of at least eight separate christian denominations, each of which will consider their interpretation of dogma and practice to be correct and the other seven to be faulty in some respect. So much for unity.

And even amongst one denomination - CofE, there isn't much evidence of unity. There are nine CofE churches within about a 30 minute walk from me - I know plenty of people who are CofE worshippers. Do they go to the most conveniently located church? Not a bit of it, nope they attend the church that most closely aligns with their narrower interpretation still. So the evangelicals ignore perhaps three nearer churches to attend the most evangelical. The high-church cathedral types won't worship in more lowly churches, only the Abbey and so on.

And, of course each denominations wants its own schools to divide even further.

[Sriram]

If for example, Christianity had not developed, what would the 2 billion people across the globe be today?

[Gordon]

If for example, Christianity had not developed, what would the 2 billion people across the globe be today?

That is, and very obviously, unknowable.

[ProfessorDavey]

If for example, Christianity had not developed, what would the 2 billion people across the globe be today?

No one is denying that numerically christianity has been successful. But so what, that doesn't mean it is a force for good or successful in other ways. And in terms of unity christianity has been far from a unifying force over many centuries as the huge numbers who have died in sectarian conflicts can attest (well of course they can't as they died for being the 'wrong type of christian').

[Outrider]

If for example, Christianity had not developed, what would the 2 billion people across the globe be today?

Given that the prevalence of Christianity contributed to the rise of Islam, and we therefore might well not have that creed either, I'd wager on average that people would be less homophobic, less misogynist, and with fewer hang ups about sex in general. Just a first impression.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Given that the prevalence of Christianity contributed to the rise of Islam, and we therefore might well not have that creed either, I'd wager on average that people would be less homophobic, less misogynist, and with fewer hang ups about sex in general. Just a first impression.

O.

Given you are an atheist though, then just as I do, you have to assume that religions are man made. So whatever homophobia etc arises from us and is only manifested in religion. So I don't see that any wager there makes sense.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Like what? Life expectancy, infant mortality, educational outcomes, access to communication and travel, moves towards more social equity? It's not finished, obviously, but the trend is towards improvement.

slowing down and going the other way apparently. Only you could suggest that global warming and species extinction was due to unrealised progress rather than a by product of “Progress”.

[Outrider]

Given you are an atheist though, then just as I do, you have to assume that religions are man made. So whatever homophobia etc arises from us and is only manifested in religion. So I don't see that any wager there makes sense.

Having two global organisations that actively foster these behaviours can be presumed to increase the likelihood of any given individual expressing them,  though, right?

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

Given you are an atheist though, then just as I do, you have tl assume that religions are man made. So whatever homophobia etc arises from us and is only manifested in religion. So I don't see that any wager there makes sense.

Sure, as an atheist, I think that religions are man made.

But they are incredibly powerful social constructs and have some features about them that make them distinct from many other societal constructs. They have developed methods to promulgate a social norm generation to generation, but that doesn't make them distinct. What makes them distinct is the claim to be divinely inspired and therefore sit outside the normal societal expectations and customs. In effect that they are divinely 'correct'. That make it much harder to challenge when the normal riposte of 'well that's just your view, you are only human' is countered with 'ah, but it isn't, it is god's view'.

So it is the combination of the ability to promulgate, for example homophobia, coupled with the claim that this isn't a human view but god's view which is particularly toxic.

[Outrider]

slowing down and going the other way apparently. Only you could suggest that global warming and species extinction was due to unrealised progress rather than a by product of “Progress”.

I didn't say it was a product of unrealised progress, I said it was a byproduct of actual advances that have been made.

As to the idea that progress is slowing down, perhaps it is, perhaps we're fighting off a resurgence from the last dying thrashings of outdated philosophies?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Having two global organisations that actively foster these behaviours can be presumed to increase the likelihood of any given individual expressing them,  though, right?

O.

I would suggest that the modern attitude is live and let live.
As we have learned from Covid and the forgiveness of the Tories, the flip side of that is Live and let die.

[ProfessorDavey]

Only you could suggest that global warming and species extinction was due to unrealised progress rather than a by product of “Progress”.

Which major religions have been pretty well absent in leadership terms in trying to prevent. Indeed in many cases actively supporting parents having more children to drive human population growth which is probably the most damaging thing you can possibly do to the planet.

[ProfessorDavey]

As we have learned from Covid and the forgiveness of the Tories, the flip side of that is Live and let die.

Ah, and there we have it Vlad - the reality is that the current downward trajectory of the UK is largely politically driven and nothing to do with decreasing religiosity. Except for the (inconvenient for you Vlad) fact that there is a clear correlation between being religious, and in particular christian, and likelihood to vote Tory (and indeed to support brexit). So were it not for the religious in the UK then we'd likely have neither 12 years of Tory government nor brexit.

[Nearly Sane]

Sure, as an atheist, I think that religions are man made.

But they are incredibly powerful social constructs and have some features about them that make them distinct from many other societal constructs. They have developed methods to promulgate a social norm generation to generation, but that doesn't make them distinct. What makes them distinct is the claim to be divinely inspired and therefore sit outside the normal societal expectations and customs. In effect that they are divinely 'correct'. That make it much harder to challenge when the normal riposte of 'well that's just your view, you are only human' is countered with 'ah, but it isn't, it is god's view'.

So it is the combination of the ability to promulgate, for example homophobia, coupled with the claim that this isn't a human view but god's view which is particularly toxic.

Religions haven't done anything. People created all of them. It makes no difference what they claim. The homophobia etc come from the people.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sure, as an atheist, I think that religions are man made.

But they are incredibly powerful social constructs and have some features about them that make them distinct from many other societal constructs. They have developed methods to promulgate a social norm generation to generation, but that doesn't make them distinct. What makes them distinct is the claim to be divinely inspired and therefore sit outside the normal societal expectations and customs. In effect that they are divinely 'correct'. That make it much harder to challenge when the normal riposte of 'well that's just your view, you are only human' is countered with 'ah, but it isn't, it is god's view'.

So it is the combination of the ability to promulgate, for example homophobia, coupled with the claim that this isn't a human view but god's view which is particularly toxic.

Being a middle class academic, working class, secular homophobia is probably unknown to you.

[ProfessorDavey]

Being a middle class academic, working class, secular homophobia is probably unknown to you.

Where have I ever said that. But this largely comes from very long-range societal norms, which in the UK are underpinned by our christian religious heritage.

Do you really think that were we to have had a dominant religion for the past 1000 years that was completely relaxed about homosexuality that we'd retain embedded and endemic homophobia, regardless of whether that is from people that are, as you claim working class!