Author Topic: Religions have succeeded  (Read 65681 times)

Udayana

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #475 on: December 23, 2022, 11:06:11 AM »
That makes no sense - if Islam arose from christianity then there is, of course, a direct link to Judaism as christianity arose from Judaism. If there is no link why does Islam recognise the Torah and include a whole bunch of the same prophets.

By direct I mean without intermediate steps.

Islam arose in communities caught in wars between Christian and Persian empires and pulled in ideas from multiple religious schools, the connection to Judaism is via the Jewish origin of Christianity. Though I should say that this would not be supported by most Muslims, who believe in a personal revelation to an uneducated/illiterate prophet.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #476 on: December 23, 2022, 11:29:04 AM »
No - the point you were making was that experts disagreed - presumably when they were giving expert opinion, not down the pub.

Firstly I doubt that any credible expert scientist would voice an opinion on the results of a clinical trial before those results are available. So as far as I am aware in advance of the clinical data being available Oppershaw never gave an expert opinion that the vaccine would not work, and on the flip side I doubt very much that Sarah Gilbert would have given expert opinion that the vaccine would work prior to the evidence being available.

So over to you - show me where Oppenshaw publicly expressed the expert opinion that the vaccines wouldn't work in the months before the clinical trial data were available. As far as I can see his expert opinion was never than, and actually focussed on his expertise which isn't vaccine development (he isn't a vaccinologist) but the potential clinical management of infection with an effective vaccine (because he is a clinical virologist).

So these quotes from his expert opinion submission to the Science & Technology select committee in June 2020, before the trials had even started:

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/557/html/

'Our hope for a vaccine is that we could induce even better immune responses than can be induced by the virus itself. If the virus is indeed neutralising multiple checkpoints in the immune system to its own advantage, a vaccine might be able to induce a good immune response while not interfering with the host’s immune response in the way that a live virus would. This is all a bit speculative because, again, this virus is relatively new to us.'

' I am hopeful that at least one of the many vaccine approaches that are being developed, and which you will hear more about later today, will produce some good, solid, protective immunity and will not cause this immune enhancement.'

'As I say, certain areas of the virus surface proteins are essential for them to gain entry via the receptors that they are adapted to bind to. By targeting those areas with vaccines, we should be able to develop vaccines that confer some immunity from which the virus cannot easily escape.

Privately he may have worried, as I'm sure a lot of people did, that the vaccine would not work but I can't see any evidence that he expressed this in expert opinion. That would firstly be crazy as it would not be evidence based because the trial hadn't happened at that point. And as a virologist, rather than a vaccinologist, you will note that his responses largely focus on his area of expertise, which isn't actually vaccine design and manufacture.
No - the point I was making was a quote from Professor Openshaw where he said "We mentioned vaccines in our first report on Covid from Academy of Medical Sciences and said it was unlikely that anything would be available in the near future."

In contrast to an actual report, your input on this forum is very much like discussing things down the pub. You may consider yourself an expert but why would I take your word for it?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #477 on: December 23, 2022, 11:40:32 AM »
VG,

Quote
And I have already gone through it point by point to explain why your arguments are wrong at every step. Repeating your wrong arguments is not going to change the outcome. You're still wrong.

I don’t know whether you’re deliberately lying or simply cannot grasp the arguments that falsify you. Either way though, arguments they remain with examples and analogies included too to help you. I’ll even post them again at the end of this Reply for you to address or to ignore again as you wish.

If nonetheless you want to remain with the notion that you cannot apply a contemporary moral analysis to stories that have supernatural components, that don’t have as much “detail” a you’d like, that were written by people whose intentions are not clear to you (ie, effectively a great swathe of literary criticism) I would suggest you get on to Amazon and try the following for starters:

To Kill a Mockingbird

A Christmas Carol

Lord of the Flies

The Scarlet Letter

Never Let Me Go

The Count of Monte Cristo

Aesop’s Fables

Pride and Prejudice

Crime and Punishment

Of Mice and Men

There are many other works that bear subsequent moral analysis of course, and indeed there are novels written by moral philosophers too (try Iris Murdoch for example) but these should get you started.

You’re welcome.


Boy, you can sure pack a lot of wrong into one reply. As briefly as I can then:

No he wasn’t. There could have been no valid consent by modern Western standards because of the basic constituents of the story as presented. Why? Because of the (likely) underage part, because of the (explicit) asymmetric power dynamic part, and because of the no alternative part.   

No it isn’t. The events described being “supernatural” changes nothing about the basic critique of the morality of the story. The story is presented as morally good – just as the lessons learned from visitations by ghosts in Dickens’ A Christmas Carol is presented as having a morally beneficial effect on (the also fictional) Ebenezer Scrooge. So what?     

Good grief. It’s a story about a (likely) underage girl by modern standards beings told she “will” be impregnated and carry to term a baby whose father is an all-powerful god. Whether the conception in the story happened sexually or by some other means is about the least important part of that story.

Imagine that, say, one day someone invented a sperm pill that if ingested would cause women to conceive – would it be fine and dandy for them to be given no choice in the matter because no sex was involved in your view? Why not?         

I’ve corrected you on this error already, so why are you repeating it here? It doesn’t matter why the bible was written – all that matters is the content of the story as told being presented as morally good when seen through the lens of modern sensibilities. You’ve told us that you have children, so I assume they studied English and had to do some literary criticism? Imagine then that, say, they were asked to write post-feminist analysis of Hamlet’s treatment of women in the play. Would they have answered, “but I can’t answer that because Shakespeare had never heard of post-feminism”, or maybe “I can’t answer that because there’s a supernatural ghost in the play”? Why not?         

So what? Whether it’s written as reportage or written as complete fiction its content can still be analysed though any subsequent lens we wish to apply – including that of modern Western sensibilities.

Probabilistically yes you can. The story likely concerns an underage girl by modern standards. Whether there ever was a Mary and whether she was older than the mean for the time makes no difference at all – it’s the story that’s being analysed, not verifiable historical facts.   

Wrong again. By contemporary Western standards the story as written means that “Mary” could not have given valid consent. By those standards, it was just impossible.     

Nope. The story uses “will” (unfailingly so too we’re told), which allows for no possibility at all of a different outcome.

Yes it is possible, and no it’s not “ambiguous” – see above. The story is the story no matter how much you try to pare it into bite-size pieces for special pleading. Any story – A Christmas  Carol and Hamlet included – can raise questions about the intentions of the authors, what their purpose was, uncertainty about historical veracity and no doubt many other issues too. For this purpose though none of that matters. All that matters is that the Biblical conception story, A Christmas Carol and Hamlet alike as they are presented can all be analysed on their own terms through any subsequent moral lens we happen to choose.

It would help if you’d try to understand this.                 
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #478 on: December 23, 2022, 11:42:50 AM »
Which effectively supports my view, specifically.

That Islam grew out of Judaism and that Islam recognised the Torah as a holy text, albeit with differing interpretations - that why we ultimately have Islam as a distinct religion from Judaism. But they are inextricably linked historically and theologically. So the starting point of Islam is Judaism as Islam grew out of Judaism, and the starting point of Judaism, certainly textually, is Genesis. Therefore the text which is close to the beginning of Genesis is at the starting point of three major religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
So to clarify, when you quoted this line from Genesis in the Bible:

'Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.'

And then directly after that quote you commented:
"And this is the very starting point of three of the major religions in the world today - Judaism, Christianity and Islam."

Are you now trying to claim that the word "this" in your comment didn't mean the quote from the Bible at all and you were not trying to say that this quote was the starting point of Islam?

And are you claiming that your use of the word "this" was intended to be a general reference to some version of the Torah that may have been altered since it was supposedly revealed to Moses according to Muslim beliefs and that the starting point of Islam does not include the words you quoted, as Islam does not endorse this quote as being something Muslims need to follow?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #479 on: December 23, 2022, 11:46:27 AM »
Sriram,

Quote
What is this 'minor' and 'major' you keep referring to?!  During biblical times, children as young as 6 were married off. Sex was usually based on puberty. Puberty was the deciding age for adult or child.

18 years that many countries today follow as age of majority, is of recent origin and actually has no basis in medical terms. It is adhoc.


We’ve covered this already. “Minor” by contemporary Western standards. The comparison isn’t between those standards and the standards of 1st century Palestinian society, it’s between those standards and the standards of a morally perfect god (according to the Bible story).   

You can think either one to be morally better than the other, but you can’t have both.
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Sriram

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #480 on: December 23, 2022, 12:14:09 PM »
What do you mean, 'morally perfect' God?

Morality applies only to humans who live in a society. God by biblical definitions is above all laws, rules and morality.  He is the creator of all that is and the concept of 'morally perfect' does not even make sense to someone who can create and destroy at will .


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #481 on: December 23, 2022, 12:19:45 PM »
VG,

Quote
Why would the law as it currently stands get involved in a supernatural pregnancy? What current law would that break?

There is no law against non-consensual supernatural impregnation because supernatural impregnation isn’t a thing. Nor is there a law against Tooth Fairies flying too close to airports, because Tooth Fairies aren’t a thing.

What point do you think you are making?

Quote
So what you are saying is that in the story, there is no evidence that Mary was underage,…

No, in the story she probably was because that’s what most people in her circumstances were at that time.   

Quote
…but if the CPS investigated further, beyond the story they may or may not find she is underage? So currently, on the information in the story, we don't know her age and we have nothing to indicate she had not reached the age of majority at the time of the story. So it is not clear from the story that there was no consent, based on Mary's age?

What we have “to indicate that she had not reached the age of majority at the time of the story” is the story itself that we can treat a describing the contemporary archetype of a “Mary”. The story doesn’t tell us what she had for breakfast either, but if most people in that time and place had porridge then it would be reasonable to assume she aligned with that archetype too (albeit that a much smaller number had muesli or bacon & eggs). We’re dealing effectively with Lit Crit here remember, not a forensic analysis of what would or wouldn't be sufficient for a conviction in a court of law.   

Quote
I suggest you find some proof that Mary was under-age for artificial pregnancies and then we can re-look at the issue.

Why? Would you also demand some proof of Jacob Marley’s existence before we could look at the moral implications of A Christmas Carol? 

Quote
You also haven't been able to show in the story that Mary was forced against her will, that she objected to the pregnancy, or that she felt threatened by violence into consenting.


All that’s necessary is to show that, by contemporary standards, Mary’s impregnation was non-consensual. By those standards Mary’s impregnation was necessarily non-consensual no matter what she said or did for several reasons (differential power dynamic, absence of choice etc) and the likely underage component is also sufficient for non-consent but not necessary for it.     
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 12:34:11 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #482 on: December 23, 2022, 12:31:47 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
What do you mean, 'morally perfect' God?

Morality applies only to humans who live in a society. God by biblical definitions is above all laws, rules and morality.  He is the creator of all that is and the concept of 'morally perfect' does not even make sense to someone who can create and destroy at will .


Matthew 5:48

“You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”

See here for more:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/gods_perfection
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #483 on: December 23, 2022, 01:16:48 PM »
So to clarify, when you quoted this line from Genesis in the Bible:

'Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.'

And then directly after that quote you commented:
"And this is the very starting point of three of the major religions in the world today - Judaism, Christianity and Islam."

Are you now trying to claim that the word "this" in your comment didn't mean the quote from the Bible at all and you were not trying to say that this quote was the starting point of Islam?
Why are you selectively quoting yet again VG - what I actually said was:

'Really - I was at a school christmas concert a couple of nights ago that included the standard bible readings used for that purpose, which includes the start of Genesis which included the following words (note girls and boys were present):

'Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.'

And this is the very starting point of three of the major religions in the world today - Judaism, Christianity and Islam.'

I can understand that when reading this you might be confused as to whether my 'starting point' in the final sentence was meant to refer to the specific quote or to the broader Genesis. I actually meant the latter - hence I also used the word 'start' in my reference to Genesis.

However I'm struggling to see why this makes any difference - Islam and Christianity are inextricably linked to Judaism - without Judaism there would be no Christianity and there would be no Islam. Further more, both Islam and Christianity recognise the Torah to be an important holy text (although there may be differences in interpretation between the three religions). In theological chronology Genesis represents the start of Judaism and hence, as they are all linked is the starting point for both Christianity and Islam.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #484 on: December 23, 2022, 01:28:30 PM »
But those criteria apply to many countries, including a bunch that sit higher up the list, such as:

Namibia (6th), Rwanda (7th), Nicaragua (12th), Burundi (26th), Mozambique (32nd), Mexico (34th), Argentina (35th), Loas (36th), Cuba (38th), Jamaica (40th), Ecuador (42nd), El Salvador (43rd), Panama (44th), Zimbabwe (47th) - I could go on. So countries with significant current and historic issues as you describe, but all sit comfortably in the top half for gender equality. So there is no reason to consider that these social and societal challenges necessarily impact gender equality. So I think you might want to look for something else that is absent from these highly challenged countries in the top half, that might be present in nearly every country smack at the bottom of the list.

Anything you might note from those countries in comparison with the 30 countries sitting in the bottom 35 that are members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation.

And of course there are countries right down the bottom of that list that sit amongst the wealthiest countries in the world by GDP per capita - e.g. Qatar (141st out of 155), Saudi Arabia (146th), Kuwait (142nd)
No all those criteria do not apply to Namibia, Rwanda etc. Some of the ones at the bottom of the list have been considered as failed states https://www.csis.org/analysis/afghanistan-iraq-syria-libya-and-yemen

Pakistan patriarchal tribal culture is very conservative, whereby many people celebrate the birth of a son, but not a daughter, and feed and educate a son better than a daughter, leading to men getting better jobs, more money and are therefore perceived as more valuable to financially support parents and family. This is reflected in their interpretation and practice of Islam.

For example, the responsibility or duty in Islam for providing economically for the family is placed on the man so what a husband earns is to be used to support the family, but this is not a duty for the wife as what she earns is for herself but can if she chooses be spent on supporting the family. There are many verses and traditional sayings of Prophet Muhammad and examples exhorting equal treatment as economic support is not considered as being more valuable in Islam than other acts and contributions in society. The traditional story is that when Prophet Mohammed was asked by a man who was most deserving of his good behaviour, he was told it was his mother and when he asked "who next", he was told his mother and when asked "who next" he was told his mother, and when asked for the 4th time who next after his mother, he was told his father.

It seems the verses in the Quran and hadith that promote female education have not made much inroads into this conservative mindset of both men and women in Pakistan.

A man being physically stronger than a woman, it makes sense where economic output involved working in dangerous and physically challenging circumstances and situations, that a man had a greater responsibility to economically support the family. Similarly as women would become pregnant and breastfeed and be primary care-givers, again it made sense to put the primary responsibility for financial support on the man. This responsibility on the man does not prevent women from being educated and working and female education was a feature of Muslim societies historically https://onwardforafghanwomen.org/policy/girls-education-and-islam-a-divine-command-with-historical-precedent/

“Education is the only way to empower them [girls], improve their status, ensure their participation in the development of their respective societies, and activate their role to be able to take responsibility for future generations.”
– Dr. Yousef bin Ahmed Al-Othaimeen, secretary-general of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation

As technology and education has improved such that physical strength and endurance is less of a factor, and men take on more child-care duties, there is less need to value a man's physical strength. But in conservative societies such as Pakistan, with it's honour culture and attitudes to men's sexual gratification, girls and women are prevented from participating in education and work outside the home because of fears of sexual activity and rape and unwanted pregnancies and dishonour.

And Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait's Arabic cultural interpretation of Islam is not something that had much of a following in non-Arab Muslims,  until Arab petrodollars started funding religious institutions in other parts of the world or until people from other countries went to work as labourers and domestic servants in Saudi and brought back cultural religious practices.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 01:36:11 PM by Violent Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #485 on: December 23, 2022, 01:29:59 PM »
And are you claiming that your use of the word "this" was intended to be a general reference to some version of the Torah that may have been altered since it was supposedly revealed to Moses according to Muslim beliefs and that the starting point of Islam does not include the words you quoted, as Islam does not endorse this quote as being something Muslims need to follow?
The quote in question, presumably being the bit I bolded, in other words:

'... and he shall rule over thee.'

In other words justifying gender inequality. Now, of course, as I pointed out there are also quotes in the Quran that certainly also appear to justify gender inequality as well as this one from the Torah, which is recognised by Islam.

So presumably if you think Islam does not endorse this quote as being something Muslims need to follow then presumably Islamic societies would be paragons of gender equality, while Jewish and Christian societies would be hotbeds of gender inequality. And this is about what happens in practice, rather than sterile theological argument over the meaning of ancient texts.

So let's look at the evidence on gender equality. Well we have only one Jewish country - Israel - comes in 60th on the gender equality index, so not great but not awful, just in the top half.

Nominally Christian countries are scattered through the index but largely absent from the bottom 35 or so places.

So which countries are massively disproportionately at the bottom - that would be all the Islamic countries. So I'm not really interested in whether you consider that '... and he shall rule over thee.' is a quote that Islam does not endorse as being something Muslims need to follow in theory. It is pretty clear that Islamic societies are practicing gender inequality to a much more extreme degree compared to other societies.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #486 on: December 23, 2022, 01:33:03 PM »
No all those criteria do not apply to Namibia, Rwanda etc. Some of the ones at the bottom of the list have been considered as failed states https://www.csis.org/analysis/afghanistan-iraq-syria-libya-and-yemen

Pakistan patriarchal tribal culture is very conservative, whereby many people celebrate the birth of a son, but not a daughter, and feed and educate a son better than a daughter, leading to men getting better jobs, more money and are therefore perceived as more valuable to financially support parents and family. This is reflected in their interpretation and practice of Islam.

For example, the responsibility or duty in Islam for providing economically for the family is placed on the man so what a husband earns is to be used to support the family, but this is not a duty for the wife as what she earns is for herself but can if she chooses be spent on supporting the family. There are many verses and traditional sayings of Prophet Muhammad and examples exhorting equal treatment as economic support is not considered as being more valuable in Islam than other acts and contributions in society. The traditional story is that when Prophet Mohammed was asked by a man who was most deserving of his good behaviour, he was told it was his mother and when he asked "who next", he was told his mother and when asked "who next" he was told his mother, and when asked for the 4th time who next after his mother, he was told his father. it seems the verses in the Quran have not made much inroads into this mindset of both men and women:

A man being physically stronger than a woman, it makes sense where economic output involved working in dangerous and physically challenging circumstances and situations, that a man had a greater responsibility to economically support the family. Similarly as women would become pregnant and breastfeed and be primary care-givers, again it made sense to put the primary responsibility for financial support on the man. This responsibility on the man does not prevent women from being educated and working and was a female education was a feature of Muslim societies historically https://onwardforafghanwomen.org/policy/girls-education-and-islam-a-divine-command-with-historical-precedent/

“Education is the only way to empower them [girls], improve their status, ensure their participation in the development of their respective societies, and activate their role to be able to take responsibility for future generations.”
– Dr. Yousef bin Ahmed Al-Othaimeen, secretary-general of the Organisation of Islamic

As technology and education has improved such that physical strength and endurance is less of a factor, and men take on more child-care duties, there is less need to value a man's physical strength. But in conservative societies such as Pakistan, with it's honour culture and attitudes to men's sexual gratification, girls and women are prevented from participating in education and work outside the home because of fears of sexual activity and rape and unwanted pregnancies and dishonour.

And Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait's Arabic cultural interpretation of Islam is not something that had much of a following in non-Arab Muslims,  until Arab petrodollars started funding religious institutions in other parts of the world or until people from other countries went to work as labourers and domestic servants in Saudi and brought back cultural religious practices.
It really is rather pitiful seeing you trying to squirm out of the obvious conclusion - the key defining feature of virtually every country that has the worst record of gender equality is that they are Islamic.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #487 on: December 23, 2022, 01:38:31 PM »
It really is rather pitiful seeing you trying to squirm out of the obvious conclusion - the key defining feature of virtually every country that has the worst record of gender equality is that they are Islamic.
Once again demonstrating that your grasp of academic study and evidence to support conclusions is pitiful to non-existent.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #488 on: December 23, 2022, 01:50:21 PM »
Once again demonstrating that your grasp of academic study and evidence to support conclusions is pitiful to non-existent.
Yawn.

I've provided evidence in the form of the gender equality index to support my opinion. And that evidence demonstrates that Islamic countries are massively disproportionately to be found right at the bottom of the pile for gender quality.

Now you can try to argue that it has nothing to do with the Islamic nature of those countries, but you are really struggling. And just to be clear the fragile state index (not failed state that terminology is no longer used) shows that in the top 20 or so most fragile countries reside countries such as Burundi, Zimbabwe and Mozambique which are comfortably in the top half for gender equality. Conversely Qatar, Oman, Kuwait are near the bottom of the fragile state index but are right near the bottom on gender equality.

I mean VG - are you seriously trying to argue that Islamic societies don't have a major problem with gender equality.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 01:52:22 PM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #489 on: December 23, 2022, 01:51:38 PM »
VG,

I don’t know whether you’re deliberately lying or simply cannot grasp the arguments that falsify you. Either way though, arguments they remain with examples and analogies included too to help you. I’ll even post them again at the end of this Reply for you to address or to ignore again as you wish.

If nonetheless you want to remain with the notion that you cannot apply a contemporary moral analysis to stories that have supernatural components, that don’t have as much “detail” a you’d like, that were written by people whose intentions are not clear to you (ie, effectively a great swathe of literary criticism) I would suggest you get on to Amazon and try the following for starters:

To Kill a Mockingbird

A Christmas Carol

Lord of the Flies

The Scarlet Letter

Never Let Me Go

The Count of Monte Cristo

Aesop’s Fables

Pride and Prejudice

Crime and Punishment

Of Mice and Men

There are many other works that bear subsequent moral analysis of course, and indeed there are novels written by moral philosophers too (try Iris Murdoch for example) but these should get you started.

You’re welcome.


Boy, you can sure pack a lot of wrong into one reply. As briefly as I can then:

No he wasn’t. There could have been no valid consent by modern Western standards because of the basic constituents of the story as presented. Why? Because of the (likely) underage part, because of the (explicit) asymmetric power dynamic part, and because of the no alternative part.   

No it isn’t. The events described being “supernatural” changes nothing about the basic critique of the morality of the story. The story is presented as morally good – just as the lessons learned from visitations by ghosts in Dickens’ A Christmas Carol is presented as having a morally beneficial effect on (the also fictional) Ebenezer Scrooge. So what?     

Good grief. It’s a story about a (likely) underage girl by modern standards beings told she “will” be impregnated and carry to term a baby whose father is an all-powerful god. Whether the conception in the story happened sexually or by some other means is about the least important part of that story.

Imagine that, say, one day someone invented a sperm pill that if ingested would cause women to conceive – would it be fine and dandy for them to be given no choice in the matter because no sex was involved in your view? Why not?         

I’ve corrected you on this error already, so why are you repeating it here? It doesn’t matter why the bible was written – all that matters is the content of the story as told being presented as morally good when seen through the lens of modern sensibilities. You’ve told us that you have children, so I assume they studied English and had to do some literary criticism? Imagine then that, say, they were asked to write post-feminist analysis of Hamlet’s treatment of women in the play. Would they have answered, “but I can’t answer that because Shakespeare had never heard of post-feminism”, or maybe “I can’t answer that because there’s a supernatural ghost in the play”? Why not?         

So what? Whether it’s written as reportage or written as complete fiction its content can still be analysed though any subsequent lens we wish to apply – including that of modern Western sensibilities.

Probabilistically yes you can. The story likely concerns an underage girl by modern standards. Whether there ever was a Mary and whether she was older than the mean for the time makes no difference at all – it’s the story that’s being analysed, not verifiable historical facts.   

Wrong again. By contemporary Western standards the story as written means that “Mary” could not have given valid consent. By those standards, it was just impossible.     

Nope. The story uses “will” (unfailingly so too we’re told), which allows for no possibility at all of a different outcome.

Yes it is possible, and no it’s not “ambiguous” – see above. The story is the story no matter how much you try to pare it into bite-size pieces for special pleading. Any story – A Christmas  Carol and Hamlet included – can raise questions about the intentions of the authors, what their purpose was, uncertainty about historical veracity and no doubt many other issues too. For this purpose though none of that matters. All that matters is that the Biblical conception story, A Christmas Carol and Hamlet alike as they are presented can all be analysed on their own terms through any subsequent moral lens we happen to choose.

It would help if you’d try to understand this.                 

I suggest you post an example of a modern literary criticism of a moral standard in a story to make it clear what you are getting at.

If you are asking for my opinion on whether it was ok for Mary to be pregnant in the society she was in, then my answer is yes. In the circumstances of that society, teenage pregnancy was normal.

If you are asking me what I think about teenagers being pregnant in Britain today, I would say my opinion is there are better options if you want to improve your education and earning power than taking time out to be pregnant and look after a baby. If the teenager was going to give the baby up for adoption, there is less disruption to becoming a cog in the capitalist system, but the pregnancy would still cause a disruption.

I am not sure if it's healthier for a teen to be pregnant than out binge-drinking, taking drugs and sleeping around but if any or all of those activities can be combined with being economically productive, I guess it would be her choice.

Not sure what your point is though.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #490 on: December 23, 2022, 01:52:54 PM »
Yawn.

I've provided evidence in the form of the gender equality index to support my opinion. And that evidence demonstrates that Islamic countries are massively disproportionately to be found right at the bottom of the pile for gender quality.

Now you can try to argue that it has nothing to do with the Islamic nature of those countries, but you are really struggling. And just to be clear the fragile state index (not failed state that terminology is no longer used) shows that in the bottom 20 or so most fragile countries reside countries such as Burundi, Zimbabwe and Mozambique which are comfortably in the top half for gender equality. Conversely Qatar, Oman, Kuwait are near the bottom of the fragile state index but are right near the bottom on gender equality.

I mean VG - are you seriously trying to argue that Islamic societies don't have a major problem with gender equality.
Does the gender equality index report you posted come to the same conclusion as you - that the cause is Islam?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #491 on: December 23, 2022, 02:02:03 PM »
Does the gender equality index report you posted come to the same conclusion as you - that the cause is Islam?
I'm presenting the facts - you are the one trying to argue that the fact that 30 of the 35 worst countries on gender equality are Islamic societies has nothing to do with them being ... err ... Islamic.

That is for you to justify with your own evidence. Good luck with that - your attempts so far have been rather pitiful.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #492 on: December 23, 2022, 02:11:45 PM »
I'm presenting the facts - you are the one trying to argue that the fact that 30 of the 35 worst countries on gender equality are Islamic societies has nothing to do with them being ... err ... Islamic.

That is for you to justify with your own evidence. Good luck with that - your attempts so far have been rather pitiful.
What you said was "I'm interested in whether religions, and in this case Islamic societies nurture and  support gender equality" but you have not shown any evidence to support your conclusion that these are Islamic societies or that Islam is failing to nurture gender equality. You haven't shown how you have isolated Islam as the defining feature of the society and its institutional and social practices, and that other factors and influences such as tribal culture, conservative mindsets, colonialism, war, corruption, resource stripping, poverty, poor educational and health facilities and infrastructure etc are not in fact the defining features of these societies.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #493 on: December 23, 2022, 02:21:32 PM »
What you said was "I'm interested in whether religions, and in this case Islamic societies nurture and  support gender equality" ...
But it is demonstrably true that Islamic societies are are really poor at supporting gender equality - the gender equality index demonstrates that beyond doubt - 30 out of the 35 worst performers are Islamic societies.

Now if you want to argue that it has nothing to do with them being Islamic societies go right ahead - but you'd need to provide evidence to back up your assertions. Merely stating a bunch of other attributes, which also exist in countries with a good record of gender equality, doesn't really cut it.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #494 on: December 23, 2022, 02:32:55 PM »
But it is demonstrably true that Islamic societies are are really poor at supporting gender equality - the gender equality index demonstrates that beyond doubt - 30 out of the 35 worst performers are Islamic societies.

Now if you want to argue that it has nothing to do with them being Islamic societies go right ahead - but you'd need to provide evidence to back up your assertions. Merely stating a bunch of other attributes, which also exist in countries with a good record of gender equality, doesn't really cut it.
As you are the one making the claim that it is Islam that is the cause of the gender inequality, it is up to you to provide evidence of this. I am sure as an "academic" and a "scientist" you are well aware of the absolute basic rule that correlation does not imply causation. Or did they leave that part out when you were earning your "qualification"?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #495 on: December 23, 2022, 03:26:00 PM »
As you are the one making the claim that it is Islam that is the cause of the gender inequality, ...
Oh dear - further misrepresentation.

I have posed the following question - is there evidence that Islamic societies have a better, worse or similar record to non Islamic societies in terms of gender equality?

In order to assess this I have looked at this on a country by country level - defining an Islamic society as a country that is a member of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (which seems perfectly reasonable). I have then looked for any specific trends when looking at these countries records in gender equality - again reasonably using the Index of Gender Equality.

What I have found, and is pretty well indisputable is that member states of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation have a disproportionately poor record on gender equality - to such an extent they they take 30 out of the bottom 35 positions on gender equality.

So far, so completely evidence bases and factual.

Now as far as I am aware I have gone no further than this - my conclusion is that Islamic societies, defined as being members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation have a disproportionately poor record on gender equality. I don't see that is under dispute.

You are the one that has gone further - postulating a range of reasons (not involving Islam) for this inconvenient (for you) fact. The onus is on you then to provide evidence to support your assertion that the reason for poor gender equality is for example; tribal culture, conservative mindsets, colonialism, war, corruption, resource stripping, poverty, poor educational and health facilities and infrastructure.

It is for you to provide that evidence - albeit I have provided my own evidence to demonstrate that there isn't anything like a clear correction between poor gender equality and poverty, being a fragile state etc as there is with being an Islamic society, defined as a member of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation and having a poor record on gender equality.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 03:35:09 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Sriram

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #496 on: December 23, 2022, 03:33:39 PM »
Sriram,
 

Matthew 5:48

“You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”

See here for more:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/gods_perfection


So...what does perfect mean?  Either God alone would know or the people who wrote that sentence would have surmised based on their values at that time. It would surely have nothing to do with our present day  ideas of consent or minor or whatever.....

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #497 on: December 23, 2022, 03:43:17 PM »
Oh dear - further misrepresentation.
Ok so you are not claiming Islam is the cause of the gender inequality in the list on the Index of Gender Equality. Good to know.

Quote
Now as far as I am aware I have gone no further than this - my conclusion is that Islamic societies, defined as being members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation have a disproportionately poor record on gender equality. I don't see that is under dispute.
I agree, if that is the conclusion you have reached.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #498 on: December 23, 2022, 04:05:23 PM »
VG,

Quote
I suggest you post an example of a modern literary criticism of a moral standard in a story to make it clear what you are getting at.

It’s hard to know whether you’re serious here – or perhaps you’re just not aware of the canon of writing about moral ideas and implications in literature from the ancient Greeks through to later fables, mediaeval morality plays, Elizabethan drama, the great 19th century novels and so on?

Here for example (from countless examples of the genre) is a short discussion from a philosophy site about the moral implications of line: “If God is dead, then everything is permitted” that Dostoevsky gives to Dmitri Karamazov in the novel The Brothers Karamazov. 

https://www.philosophytalk.org/blog/if-god-dead-why-isnt-everything-permitted

Note here that it’s quite possible to have discussions of this kind whether or not the characters in the story were real, without further “details” required, regardless of the intentions of the author, and without forensic-level information about the characters involved. It also wouldn't matter if Dostoevsky had made Dmitri a ghost by the way.   

Quote
If you are asking for my opinion on whether it was ok for Mary to be pregnant in the society she was in, then my answer is yes. In the circumstances of that society, teenage pregnancy was normal.

I’m not.

Quote
If you are asking me what I think about teenagers being pregnant in Britain today, I would say my opinion is there are better options if you want to improve your education and earning power than taking time out to be pregnant and look after a baby. If the teenager was going to give the baby up for adoption, there is less disruption to becoming a cog in the capitalist system, but the pregnancy would still cause a disruption.

I am not sure if it's healthier for a teen to be pregnant than out binge-drinking, taking drugs and sleeping around but if any or all of those activities can be combined with being economically productive, I guess it would be her choice.

I’m not.

Quote
Not sure what your point is though.

Why not? Here it is again:

By modern Western standards, the character “god” of the Bible story as presented acted morally badly. The Bible also though describes the character god as morally perfect. This means either:

A. Modern Western moral standards are morally defective; or

B. The god of the Bible character isn’t morally perfect. 

(For completeness both A and B could also be true, but that’s a different matter). 

Just as you would feel able to comment on the moral implications of Karamazov’s question, the question therefore here was and remains which of A or B you opt for on the basis of the story as presented set against your understanding of current Western position(s) on such matters. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 04:14:50 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Religions have succeeded
« Reply #499 on: December 23, 2022, 04:10:27 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
So...what does perfect mean?  Either God alone would know or the people who wrote that sentence would have surmised based on their values at that time. It would surely have nothing to do with our present day  ideas of consent or minor or whatever.....

Not my problem – ask a Christian perhaps?

The point here is that the Bible (that Christians deem to be true) tells us that the character “god” is morally perfect. What that has to do with modern positions on morality is that they conflict with what the story tells us this morally perfect god did. The question therefore is which one is morally better: the current Western standard for behaviour, or god’s behaviour?   
"Don't make me come down there."

God