Author Topic: Good without God  (Read 6398 times)

Gordon

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2023, 08:58:33 PM »
I don't think so since the title is Good without God and theology is to do with the things of God. In Sriram's scheme God is a minor consideration here and secondary to spiritual development whatever that means.

The Humanist slogan good without God is I believe based on a myth agnostics, atheists and apatheists have concerning the religious who they take as holier than thou and seeing themselves as Good and everybody else as the sinners. The truth is they see themselves as sinners. Good without God is based on brushes with christians and christianity rather than engagement IMV.

I haven't seen a manifesto from Humanist UK on how to be Good so perhaps it is a low priority for them.

I'm surprised you haven't gone all Euthyphro on us before now, Vlad.

jeremyp

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2023, 04:40:58 PM »
That doesn’t look like the Gospel where people can come to Christ because they aren’t good. I only speak for Christianity, here.

On that view, you question applies to Christians as well as atheists.

If you can be good even though God provides you with a way out of the punishment for being bad, why isn't everybody good?

The answer is the same as for your question: just because you can be good doesn't mean you will be good.
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splashscuba

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2023, 08:49:23 PM »
Don't feed the troll
I have an infinite number of belief systems cos there are an infinite number of things I don't believe in.

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. I don't have to respect your beliefs.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2023, 10:50:56 PM »
Don't feed the troll
I don't know what you quite expect when you come on the RELIGION and ETHICS MESSAGE BOARD?

splashscuba

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2023, 12:12:05 PM »
I don't know what you quite expect when you come on the RELIGION and ETHICS MESSAGE BOARD?
From Wiki
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In slang, a troll is a person who posts or makes inflammatory, insincere, digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages online (such as in social media, a newsgroup, a forum, a chat room, an online video game), or in real life, with the intent of provoking others into displaying emotional responses,[2] or manipulating others' perception. The behavior is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or purposefully causing confusion or harm to other people.[3]
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If you can be ''good'' without God as the Humanists say. Why isn't everyone ''good''?
of course it's trolling
I have an infinite number of belief systems cos there are an infinite number of things I don't believe in.

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. I don't have to respect your beliefs.

Outrider

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2023, 12:33:28 PM »
If you can be ''good'' without God as the Humanists say. Why isn't everyone ''good''?

Because 'good' is cultural, and one culture's 'good' is not another's. Because, whilst you CAN be good (for your cultural background), you can equally not be, and some people make poor/selfish/those choices. Because if you couldn't not be 'good' then we wouldn't have a word for it, it would just be.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2023, 06:38:21 PM »
Because 'good' is cultural, and one culture's 'good' is not another's. Because, whilst you CAN be good (for your cultural background), you can equally not be, and some people make poor/selfish/those choices. Because if you couldn't not be 'good' then we wouldn't have a word for it, it would just be.

O.
What I want to see is a thorough going manifesto for 'being good from Humanist UK' either it's not really their top priority or they think like Dawkins that it is religion that makes people bad.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2023, 07:56:50 PM »
What I want to see is a thorough going manifesto for 'being good from Humanist UK' either it's not really their top priority or they think like Dawkins that it is religion that makes people bad.
Then you should join them and make the change from the inside.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2023, 08:18:00 PM »
Then you should join them and make the change from the inside.
I'll join them Seb if you start attending your local Kirk.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2023, 08:49:41 PM »
I'll join them Seb if you start attending your local Kirk.
I'm not advocating that my local Kirk make anything a "top priority" though.
So I'll pass on that one thanks.
I await with trepidation your updates on your journey to achieve your desire regarding Humanist UK.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2023, 09:39:12 PM »
I'm not advocating that my local Kirk make anything a "top priority" though.
So I'll pass on that one thanks.
I await with trepidation your updates on your journey to achieve your desire regarding Humanist UK.
Somehow the words desire and Humanist UK look peculiar in the same sentence.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2023, 09:47:06 PM »
Somehow the words desire and Humanist UK look peculiar in the same sentence.
Do they?
Anyhoo, keep us posted?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Outrider

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2023, 09:36:13 AM »
What I want to see is a thorough going manifesto for 'being good from Humanist UK' either it's not really their top priority or they think like Dawkins that it is religion that makes people bad.

Or they think they are a group appealing to a broad range, and that it's for individuals to determine for themselves what they think is 'good' rather than cleaving to edicts from some central authority?

Dawkins does not necessarily think that religion makes people bad, but that religion's sacrosanct status and bronze age origins affords protection for bad people doing bad things, and the social pressure within religions gives bad people opportunities to encourage otherwise good people to do bad things.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2023, 06:58:37 PM »
Or they think they are a group appealing to a broad range, and that it's for individuals to determine for themselves what they think is 'good' rather than cleaving to edicts from some central authority?
Central authority seems unavoidable. Where Christianity has the Holy spirit, secular humanism has the Zeitgeist. People still take the edicts of the central authority of society. I know some people think this is a consensus of freethinkers but it is still largely tribal and tribes have their ruling classes and opinion formers.
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Dawkins does not necessarily think that religion makes people bad, but that religion's sacrosanct status and bronze age origins affords protection for bad people doing bad things, and the social pressure within religions gives bad people opportunities to encourage otherwise good people to do bad things.
Dawkins criticised the tribal only to form one of his own. I totally get the allusion to Roman Catholicism though

Interestingly I was reminded the other day of CS Lewis on Roman Catholicism and why he couldn't go over to Rome ''Not only do you have to believe all they say, but you have to believe everything they are going to say.''


Outrider

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2023, 09:45:41 AM »
Central authority seems unavoidable.

I think there's a historical tendency for people to absolve themselves of moral responsibility by accepting 'moral' edicts from on high, as well as cultural pressure to incline people to adopt socially acceptable practices. At the same time, though, there's more than enough evidence of counter-culture movements which have expanded to be adopted into cultural norms, or at least accepted behaviours, that we can presume that it's not a requirement that central authority be present and adhered to.

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Where Christianity has the Holy spirit, secular humanism has the Zeitgeist.

Or, depending on your take on things, where Christianity has vocal Christians leveraging the belief of others to co-erce/indoctrinate them into accepting defined tenets (and there's plenty of history of rebellion against various creeds, not just in Christianity but religion in general), secular humanism has no defined set of moral tenets, but individual secular humanists still have social norms to navigate.

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People still take the edicts of the central authority of society.

Some, certainly, but at every stage of history there have been heretics, rebels, outsiders and freethinkers who have pushed back against the norms, asking the question 'why?' If this were not the case we'd still have slavery, women would not have rights, homosexuality would still be proscribed...

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I know some people think this is a consensus of freethinkers but it is still largely tribal and tribes have their ruling classes and opinion formers. Dawkins criticised the tribal only to form one of his own.

Professor Dawkins didn't 'form' a tribe - he laid out a message, and some people chose to adopt that. They formed a tribe around his ideas, he didn't set out to inculcate a group of followers.

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Interestingly I was reminded the other day of CS Lewis on Roman Catholicism and why he couldn't go over to Rome ''Not only do you have to believe all they say, but you have to believe everything they are going to say.''

Given Yahweh's history of catastrophic resets of the rules, I'd suggest that's a potential outcome for any Christian, no?

O.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2023, 10:34:20 AM »
Where does our knowledge of "good" or "bad" come from?
From the materialist view, are we not all parts of the continuum of a material universe all being driven by the laws of nature?
How can we judge the actions of people like Putin or Hitler as being Bad - are they not just the inevitable result of being acted upon by laws beyond our control?

Or does our knowledge of Good and Evil come from God - who gives us the freedom to choose between the two?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2023, 11:03:01 AM by Alan Burns »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2023, 10:50:22 AM »
I think there's a historical tendency for people to absolve themselves of moral responsibility by accepting 'moral' edicts from on high, as well as cultural pressure to incline people to adopt socially acceptable practices. At the same time, though, there's more than enough evidence of counter-culture movements which have expanded to be adopted into cultural norms, or at least accepted behaviours, that we can presume that it's not a requirement that central authority be present and adhered to.
And Christianity is probably the example par excellence
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Or, depending on your take on things, where Christianity has vocal Christians leveraging the belief of others to co-erce/indoctrinate them into accepting defined tenets (and there's plenty of history of rebellion against various creeds, not just in Christianity but religion in general), secular humanism has no defined set of moral tenets, but individual secular humanists still have social norms to navigate.
I think the new testament is rich on individual moral responsibility and low on commandment. It was after all the individual who repents, The individual who recieves the holy spirit. The individual who recieves faith.

Do we see Humanist as the new kid on the block, is it in it's teenage? How will it fair when it's on top. Will it rediscover the need to coerce and indoctrinate society into righteous humanist values?

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Some, certainly, but at every stage of history there have been heretics, rebels, outsiders and freethinkers who have pushed back against the norms, asking the question 'why?' If this were not the case we'd still have slavery, women would not have rights, homosexuality would still be proscribed...
Or christians thrown to the lions.
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Professor Dawkins didn't 'form' a tribe - he laid out a message, and some people chose to adopt that.
My goodness I'm actually physically startled at how religious that sounds
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They formed a tribe around his ideas,
And he set up a foundation to nurture them.


Maeght

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2023, 08:00:09 PM »
Where does our knowledge of "good" or "bad" come from?
From the materialist view, are we not all parts of the continuum of a material universe all being driven by the laws of nature?
How can we judge the actions of people like Putin or Hitler as being Bad - are they not just the inevitable result of being acted upon by laws beyond our control?

Or does our knowledge of Good and Evil come from God - who gives us the freedom to choose between the two?

Our human nature.

torridon

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2023, 09:03:35 AM »
Where does our knowledge of "good" or "bad" come from?
From the materialist view, are we not all parts of the continuum of a material universe all being driven by the laws of nature?
How can we judge the actions of people like Putin or Hitler as being Bad - are they not just the inevitable result of being acted upon by laws beyond our control?

Or does our knowledge of Good and Evil come from God - who gives us the freedom to choose between the two?

As soon as we get evidence for God, then we could start to appraise this seriously.  Until that time, it is just belief, and beliefs vary between and within religions.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2023, 10:01:33 AM »
As soon as we get evidence for God.....
What are you expecting?

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2023, 12:45:55 PM »
What are you expecting?
Maybe a personal revelation, just like the one you had?
Not ambiguous, something which is clearly a  "message", from the Christan god, one which may even make an atheist become an evangelist.
No namby pamby "feeling" which for which one might be accused of god-dodging if it doesn't register.
Can someone sign up for that?

Do tell.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

torridon

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2023, 12:52:36 PM »
What are you expecting?

That's a problem for people who claim 'God'.  Without any universally agreed definition, how would we know what to test for ?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2023, 01:19:47 PM »
That's a problem for people who claim 'God'. 
Not really since you think there is no evidence for God what is it that is lacking? (I'm pretty sure what it is).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 01:31:53 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

torridon

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2023, 01:50:06 PM »
Not really since you think there is no evidence for God what is it that is lacking? (I'm pretty sure what it is).

Not really, it is theists that have the burden of proof; which in turn implies the burden of definition

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good without God
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2023, 01:57:14 PM »
Not really, it is theists that have the burden of proof; which in turn implies the burden of definition
OK, what is the default position or status quo here in this case?