Author Topic: Adaptation  (Read 7589 times)

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14555
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2023, 09:41:43 AM »
That Natural Selection is a metaphor is a fact.

Also, evolution may not be entirely gene centric.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060581/#:~:text=Neo%2DDarwinism%20is%20the%20term,correct%20since%20Romanes%20coined%20the

**********

This article argues that the gene-centric interpretations of evolution, and more particularly the selfish gene expression of those interpretations, form barriers to the integration of physiological science with evolutionary theory.

understanding biological function through physiological analysis requires an integrative approach in which the activity of the proteins and RNAs formed from each DNA template is analysed in networks of interactions. These networks also include components that are not specified by nuclear DNA. Inheritance is not through DNA sequences alone.

The DNA molecule on its own does absolutely nothing since it reacts biochemically only to triggering signals. It cannot even initiate its own transcription or replication. It cannot therefore be characterised as selfish in any plausible sense of the word. If we extract DNA and put it in a Petri dish with nutrients, it will do nothing. The cell from which we extracted it would, however, continue to function until it needs to make more proteins, just as red cells function for a hundred days or more without a nucleus. It would therefore be more correct to say that genes are not active causes; they are, rather, caused to give their information by and to the system that activates them. The only kind of causation that can be attributed to them is passive, much in the way a computer program reads and uses databases.

While the vehicle is also ‘inherited’ (genes on their own do nothing and certainly are not sufficient to ‘make’ an organism – since we must also inherit a complete fertilised egg cell), the story goes that changes in the vehicle are not inherited (so no inheritance of acquired characteristics) while changes in the replicator (e.g. mutations) are inherited. This approach is what enables the wholesale inheritance of the vehicle to be ignored.

Yet, the vehicle (the cell, or each cell in a multicellular organism) clearly does reproduce (indeed, it is only through this reproduction that DNA itself is transmitted), and in doing so it passes on all the phenotype characteristics for which there are no nuclear DNA templates and which are necessary to interpret the inherited DNA.

**********

The paper is about how, when looking at matters from a physiological perspective, epigenetic factors in the short term can outweigh the effects of genetic variation - that's not calling evolution by natural selection into question, it's noting that it's a long-term development in which there can be short-term 'noise' factors.

It's a little like the suggestion that a particularly cold winter somehow calls climate change into question, ignoring the short-term effects of weather and the long-term change that is global warming.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting the original paper is making that mistake, I think that's the erroneous implication of Sriram's citing of it.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2023, 10:28:54 AM »


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/replace-the-modern-sythes_b_5284211

***********

Suzan Mazur: In recent years the modern synthesis has been declared extended by major evolutionary thinkers (e.g., "the Altenberg 16" and others), as well as dead by major evolutionary thinkers, the late Lynn Margulis and Francisco Ayala among them. Ditto for the public discourse on the Internet. My understanding is that you are now calling for the modern synthesis to be replaced.

Denis Noble: I would say that it needs replacing. Yes.

The reasons I think we're talking about replacement rather than extension are several. The first is that the exclusion of any form of acquired characteristics being inherited was a central feature of the modern synthesis. In other words, to exclude any form of inheritance that was non-Mendelian, that was Lamarckian-like, was an essential part of the modern synthesis. What we are now discovering is that there are mechanisms by which some acquired characteristics can be inherited, and inherited robustly.

my argument for saying this is a matter of replacement rather than extension is simply that it was a direct intention of those who formulated the modern synthesis to exclude the inheritance of acquired characteristics. That would be my first and perhaps the main reason for saying we're talking about replacement rather than extension.

The second reason is a much more conceptual issue. I think that as a gene-centric view of evolution, the modern synthesis has got causality in biology wrong. Genes, after all, if they're defined as DNA sequences, are purely passive. DNA on its own does absolutely nothing until activated by the rest of the system through transcription factors, markers of one kind or another, interactions with the proteins. So on its own, DNA is not a cause in an active sense. I think it is better described as a passive data base which is used by the organism to enable it to make the proteins that it requires.

The third is an experimental reason. The experimental evidence now exists for various forms and various mechanisms by which an acquired characteristic can be transmitted.

Suzan Mazur: Margulis  added that "people are always more loyal to their tribal group than to any abstract notion of truth. Scientists especially tend to be loyal to the tribe instead of the truth."

Would you comment?

Denis Noble: I would certainly go along with the view that gradual mutation followed by selection has not, as a matter of fact, been demonstrated to be necessarily a cause of speciation.

Suzan Mazur: University of Chicago microbiologist Jim Shapiro, whose work you cite, told me in our 2012 interview that he no longer uses the word "gene," saying: [I]t's misleading. There was a time when we were studying the rules of Mendelian heredity when it could be useful, but that time was almost a hundred years ago now. The way I like to think of cells and genomes is that there are no "units"; there are just systems all the way down.

What is the status now of the gene in your view?

Denis Noble: My argument is very simple. Wilhelm Johannsen in 1909 introduced the definition of "gene." He was the first person to use that word, although he was introducing a concept that existed ever since Mendel. What he was actually referring to was a phenotype trait, not a piece of DNA. He didn't know about DNA in those days. We now define a gene, when we attempt to define it, as a particular sequence with "start" and "stop" codons, etc., in a strip of DNA. My point is that the first definition of a gene -- Johansen's definition as a trait, as an inheritable phenotype -- was necessarily the cause of a phenotype, because that's how it was defined. It was, if you like, a catch-all definition of a gene. Anything that contributed to that particular trait -- inheritable, according to Mendelian laws -- would be the gene, whether it is a piece of DNA or some other aspect of the functioning of the cell. That we define "gene" as a sequence of DNA becomes an empirical question, not a conceptual necessity. It becomes an empirical question whether that particular strip of DNA has a function within the phenotype.

So I go further than Jim. Not only is it difficult, as he says in his book, to now define what a gene is; one should be thinking more of networks of interactions than single and fatalistic genes at the DNA level. It's also true that the concept of a gene has changed in a very subtle way, and in a way that makes a big difference to how the concept of a gene should be used in evolutionary biology.

Suzan Mazur: There's also natural selection, which became a catch-all term. As Richard Lewontin has pointed out, it was intended as a metaphor not to be taken literally by generations of scientists.

It seems natural selection is used as a catch-all for a failure to identify what the mechanisms are.

Denis Noble: I think that's right. In principle, Darwin didn't refer to any mechanisms.

************

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14555
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2023, 10:56:48 AM »

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/replace-the-modern-sythes_b_5284211

***********

Suzan Mazur: In recent years the modern synthesis has been declared extended by major evolutionary thinkers (e.g., "the Altenberg 16" and others), as well as dead by major evolutionary thinkers, the late Lynn Margulis and Francisco Ayala among them. Ditto for the public discourse on the Internet. My understanding is that you are now calling for the modern synthesis to be replaced.

Denis Noble: I would say that it needs replacing. Yes.

The reasons I think we're talking about replacement rather than extension are several. The first is that the exclusion of any form of acquired characteristics being inherited was a central feature of the modern synthesis. In other words, to exclude any form of inheritance that was non-Mendelian, that was Lamarckian-like, was an essential part of the modern synthesis. What we are now discovering is that there are mechanisms by which some acquired characteristics can be inherited, and inherited robustly.

my argument for saying this is a matter of replacement rather than extension is simply that it was a direct intention of those who formulated the modern synthesis to exclude the inheritance of acquired characteristics. That would be my first and perhaps the main reason for saying we're talking about replacement rather than extension.

The second reason is a much more conceptual issue. I think that as a gene-centric view of evolution, the modern synthesis has got causality in biology wrong. Genes, after all, if they're defined as DNA sequences, are purely passive. DNA on its own does absolutely nothing until activated by the rest of the system through transcription factors, markers of one kind or another, interactions with the proteins. So on its own, DNA is not a cause in an active sense. I think it is better described as a passive data base which is used by the organism to enable it to make the proteins that it requires.

The third is an experimental reason. The experimental evidence now exists for various forms and various mechanisms by which an acquired characteristic can be transmitted.

Suzan Mazur: Margulis  added that "people are always more loyal to their tribal group than to any abstract notion of truth. Scientists especially tend to be loyal to the tribe instead of the truth."

Would you comment?

Denis Noble: I would certainly go along with the view that gradual mutation followed by selection has not, as a matter of fact, been demonstrated to be necessarily a cause of speciation.

Suzan Mazur: University of Chicago microbiologist Jim Shapiro, whose work you cite, told me in our 2012 interview that he no longer uses the word "gene," saying: [I]t's misleading. There was a time when we were studying the rules of Mendelian heredity when it could be useful, but that time was almost a hundred years ago now. The way I like to think of cells and genomes is that there are no "units"; there are just systems all the way down.

What is the status now of the gene in your view?

Denis Noble: My argument is very simple. Wilhelm Johannsen in 1909 introduced the definition of "gene." He was the first person to use that word, although he was introducing a concept that existed ever since Mendel. What he was actually referring to was a phenotype trait, not a piece of DNA. He didn't know about DNA in those days. We now define a gene, when we attempt to define it, as a particular sequence with "start" and "stop" codons, etc., in a strip of DNA. My point is that the first definition of a gene -- Johansen's definition as a trait, as an inheritable phenotype -- was necessarily the cause of a phenotype, because that's how it was defined. It was, if you like, a catch-all definition of a gene. Anything that contributed to that particular trait -- inheritable, according to Mendelian laws -- would be the gene, whether it is a piece of DNA or some other aspect of the functioning of the cell. That we define "gene" as a sequence of DNA becomes an empirical question, not a conceptual necessity. It becomes an empirical question whether that particular strip of DNA has a function within the phenotype.

So I go further than Jim. Not only is it difficult, as he says in his book, to now define what a gene is; one should be thinking more of networks of interactions than single and fatalistic genes at the DNA level. It's also true that the concept of a gene has changed in a very subtle way, and in a way that makes a big difference to how the concept of a gene should be used in evolutionary biology.

Suzan Mazur: There's also natural selection, which became a catch-all term. As Richard Lewontin has pointed out, it was intended as a metaphor not to be taken literally by generations of scientists.

It seems natural selection is used as a catch-all for a failure to identify what the mechanisms are.

Denis Noble: I think that's right. In principle, Darwin didn't refer to any mechanisms.

************

Unfortunately for Noble's drive for a replacement of the modern synthesis, the epigenetic traits which can be passed on fade within one or two generations unless the social, cultural or environmental factors which cause them continue and serve to reinforce the traits.

Genetic changes, however, perpetuate until further mutation changes them again, so whilst epigenetics is a fascinating and very worthwhile addition to the biological field, it neither overwrites nor supersedes the neo-Darwinian model of evolution; it very much, though, serves as an additional, complicating factor that needs to be considered in any number of circumstances.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2023, 01:49:47 PM »


Its not just about epigenetics.

He is talking of redefining what a gene refers to. If the word 'gene' is used for something that is responsible for inheritance, it cannot merely be a piece of DNA sequence. Inheritance is much more complicated and involves the whole system with communication and interactions between cells, DNA and environment.

They both are also quite clear that Natural Selection is just a metaphor....and that scientists tend to use it as a catch all term because they don't know the actual mechanism.   

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14555
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2023, 04:07:28 PM »
Its not just about epigenetics.

It's primarily about epigenetics, and the capacity for non-genetic traits to be passed on.

Quote
He is talking of redefining what a gene refers to. If the word 'gene' is used for something that is responsible for inheritance, it cannot merely be a piece of DNA sequence.

It can - that he finds a different perspective useful does not preclude the older understanding being valid.

Quote
Inheritance is much more complicated and involves the whole system with communication and interactions between cells, DNA and environment.

Yes. None of which overwrites established genetics, although it does expand it into new areas.
 
Quote
They both are also quite clear that Natural Selection is just a metaphor....and that scientists tend to use it as a catch all term because they don't know the actual mechanism.

It's only a metaphor inasmuch as there are innumerable combinations of factors which cause a functional selection for fitness, of which it's virtually impossible in anything except the rarest of cases to definitively identify which specific mechanism is involved. It is, nevertheless, natural in origin and serves the function of selecting from the range of phenotypic expresssions those combinations of traits which are the fittest in the circumstances.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2023, 07:18:22 PM »
The articles re. Nobel are good reading and informative. Assuming he is right on the button, it still lends no support for "active and intelligent adaptation rather than due to random variations" as proposed in the op.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2023, 06:49:31 AM »

But Natural Selection is a metaphor. There is no actual 'selection' taking place. It is all just chance environmental changes to which the organisms adapt by making suitable changes in their phenotype...even while the genotype remains the same.

It is more like Lamarckism.

'Natural Selection' is a metaphorical phrase used to describe an actual real world phenomenon.  Metaphorical use of language seems to confuse some people

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2023, 06:59:53 AM »


Most of you here have never really accepted that NS is a metaphor.  You people have been spinning it around with no clue as to the real mechanism.

You needed an authoritative figure to follow and nod along with...I suppose.

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7717
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2023, 07:30:26 AM »

Most of you here have never really accepted that NS is a metaphor. 

Well that's easily checked by a show of hands.

Not guilty.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14555
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2023, 09:19:22 AM »
But Natural Selection is a metaphor. There is no actual 'selection' taking place.

There is selection taking place, there isn't a selector predetermining criteria, it's circumstance selecting in the moment.

Quote
It is all just chance environmental changes to which the organisms adapt by making suitable changes in their phenotype...even while the genotype remains the same.

No, organisms are making changes in their phenotype, changes are happening in their phenotype, which results in they and their offspring being different to their forebears - if the environment selects for that trait then the genotype distribution does shift, and if it shifts far enough then it can be changed entirely over time.

Quote
It is more like Lamarckism.

It absolutely is not Lamarckism. There are short-term (in evolutionary time-frames) epigenetic traits which can linger for a few generations, and which need to be DISCOUNTED when thinking about evolution specificalliy because they do not last long-term, but there is no inheritance of acquired traits.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11070
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2023, 10:00:40 AM »
Quote
You needed an authoritative figure to follow and nod along with...I suppose.

"I suppose" is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting right there.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14555
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2023, 11:32:17 AM »

Most of you here have never really accepted that NS is a metaphor.  You people have been spinning it around with no clue as to the real mechanism.

You needed an authoritative figure to follow and nod along with...I suppose.

You've just cited an 'authoritative figure' and I've argued, so I suppose not. You've put forth an argument (by proxy, but still), and I've explained where the gaps are in that argument, and why I think it's overstating its case. There is no cleaving to authority, here, I'm addressing the argument with arguments of my own, I'm dealing with the claims and the issues.

I've a huge measure of respect for the neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution, but it's potentially refutable as is any scientific model; it would take something exceptional to do so, though, given the weight of evidence in support of it. At best you could expect to see a minor refinement (such as taking into consideration epigenetic short-term hang-overs when considering inheritance), but it's unlikely that it's going to bring the whole thing crashing down.

And make no mistake, suggesting some Lamarckian version of evolution would be a significant change to the current model.

As to the idea that natural selection is a metaphor, it's not, it's a slightly poetic name for an observed phenomenon: the idea that nature is a 'selector' making 'choices' is a metaphor, because nature has no consciousness that we can see to do that, and there is no overriding plan to the selection that we can see, but natural selection has been observed; if nothing else we see it in each and every single antibiotic resistant strain of infectious disease that emerges.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2023, 01:53:42 PM »



I didn't mean only you Outrider. I meant a whole lot of people here who have been denying for years, that NS is a metaphor.

Secondly, Noble has talked about the idea of a gene itself as a hereditary unit becoming redundant because there are multiple factors responsible for inheritance. He (and others it seems) are questioning the idea or a gene (as a piece of DNA sequence) being entirely responsible for evolution. 

The Modern Synthesis could see a replacement, it seems.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4364
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2023, 04:11:30 PM »
Well that's easily checked by a show of hands.

Not guilty.

Not guilty also. Will we be hearing that 'The Selfish Gene' describes a literal state of affairs too?
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2023, 04:42:35 PM »
Not guilty also. Will we be hearing that 'The Selfish Gene' describes a literal state of affairs too?



The link I have given in post 23  takes care of that.....

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64257
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2023, 06:22:41 PM »


The link I have given in post 23  takes care of that.....
Except that treats it as if it were not a metaphor.

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2023, 04:59:40 AM »


From the article.....

'It is important therefore to ask whether the idea could be interpreted as an empirical scientific hypothesis, particularly since Dawkins's own initial interpretation was that it was not metaphorical; in reply to Midgley (1979) he wrote: ‘that was no metaphor. I believe it is the literal truth, provided certain key words are defined in the particular ways favoured by biologists’ (Dawkins, 1981). But a metaphor does not cease to be a metaphor simply because one defines a word to mean something other than its normal meaning.'

'The only kind of causation that can be attributed to them is passive, much in the way a computer program reads and uses databases. The selfish gene idea therefore has to be interpreted not only as a metaphor, but as one that struggles to chime with modern biology.'




torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2023, 07:21:58 AM »

I didn't mean only you Outrider. I meant a whole lot of people here who have been denying for years, that NS is a metaphor.


A metaphor is an attribute of language, not of nature.  Thus, natural selection is a phenomenon of nature, and "Natural Selection" is the metaphorical phrase that Darwin coined to describe it.  No one denies that we make use of metaphors in language, but metaphors do not occur in nature.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64257
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2023, 08:31:42 AM »

From the article.....

'It is important therefore to ask whether the idea could be interpreted as an empirical scientific hypothesis, particularly since Dawkins's own initial interpretation was that it was not metaphorical; in reply to Midgley (1979) he wrote: ‘that was no metaphor. I believe it is the literal truth, provided certain key words are defined in the particular ways favoured by biologists’ (Dawkins, 1981). But a metaphor does not cease to be a metaphor simply because one defines a word to mean something other than its normal meaning.'

'The only kind of causation that can be attributed to them is passive, much in the way a computer program reads and uses databases. The selfish gene idea therefore has to be interpreted not only as a metaphor, but as one that struggles to chime with modern biology.'
And yet amazingly Dawkins is wrong. There's a greatbquote about him that as a baby all the good fairies come yo give him gifts. They bestowed intelligence, articulacy, good looks upon him. As so often though the bad gairy had not been invited and therefore arrived late. Having seen what gifts he had been given, she calmly gave him the gift of metaphor.


He also has the 'gift' of self regard, and the quote above demonstrates that. In any usual, or indeed unusual, definition of selfish, the selfish gene is a metaphor, and as per the bad fairy's gift, a rather excellent one. But Dawkins wants it to be more and resorts to the fairly ridiculous squirrelling he does above.

This is similar to the fudging about memes - another excellent metaphor but one that Dawkins' pronouncements were attempts to make it concrete. He aches to have discovered something - an actual thing, rather than a fine metaphor.

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2023, 11:00:47 AM »

If however...we attach an innate Intelligence to the processes...all the metaphors can be taken literally. Maybe that is what Darwin and Dawkins were unwittingly indicating....  Truth has to come out somehow!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64257
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2023, 11:09:13 AM »
If however...we attach an innate Intelligence to the processes...all the metaphors can be taken literally. Maybe that is what Darwin and Dawkins were unwittingly indicating....  Truth has to come out somehow!
If wishes were horses...

Sriram

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
    • Spirituality & Science
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2023, 11:47:13 AM »



It is not a wish but a recognition of a fact. Because people are reluctant to recognize this fact, they keep coming up with convoluted ideas and processes to explain life and evolution.

Intelligence does not necessarily mean an external God who directly intervenes in these processes, rather it is about Consciousness guiding and directing natural processes. Refer to my thread on Consciousness and the views of Donald Hoffman.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2023, 11:53:52 AM »


It is not a wish but a recognition of a fact. Because people are reluctant to recognize this fact, they keep coming up with convoluted ideas and processes to explain life and evolution.


The idea that there is intelligence or purpose 'behind' things, somehow, is not a fact,  It is just your perception.  If it were a fact, then there would be some evidence for it.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64257
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2023, 12:12:49 PM »


It is not a wish but a recognition of a fact. Because people are reluctant to recognize this fact, they keep coming up with convoluted ideas and processes to explain life and evolution.

Intelligence does not necessarily mean an external God who directly intervenes in these processes, rather it is about Consciousness guiding and directing natural processes. Refer to my thread on Consciousness and the views of Donald Hoffman.
  Stamping your tiny feet and saying it is a fact doesn't make it so.

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4364
Re: Adaptation
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2023, 03:21:23 PM »


It is not a wish but a recognition of a fact. Because people are reluctant to recognize this fact, they keep coming up with convoluted ideas and processes to explain life and evolution. .
Unfortunately, the idea that evolution is somehow teleological, and imbued with some all pervasive spirit or consciousness, presents endless problems of its own, not least the existence of evil. The 'guidance' that you speak of has some strange ideas about the goals of its endeavours, when one considers the delightful habits of the Jewel Wasp or the Guinea Worm, for example.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 03:23:44 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David