Author Topic: Adaptation  (Read 7587 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2023, 03:39:05 PM »
Unfortunately, the idea that evolution is somehow teleological, and imbued with some all pervasive spirit or consciousness, presents endless problems of its own, not least the existence of evil. The 'guidance' that you speak of has some strange ideas about the goals of its endeavours, when one considers the delightful habits of the Jewel Wasp or the Guinea Worm, for example.
I'd suggest that Sriram's position isn't affected by that because the guidance isn't about anything beneficial. That doesn't deal with there being no evidence of such s thing,, nor that the argumeng implies an infinite address.

Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2023, 04:52:53 AM »
Unfortunately, the idea that evolution is somehow teleological, and imbued with some all pervasive spirit or consciousness, presents endless problems of its own, not least the existence of evil. The 'guidance' that you speak of has some strange ideas about the goals of its endeavours, when one considers the delightful habits of the Jewel Wasp or the Guinea Worm, for example.


It is a philosophical position and not a religious position. The idea of Consciousness being fundamental and all pervasive is quite old.  I have posted Hoffman's ideas in the Consciousness thread precisely to show how scientists are beginning to think.

The idea of panpsychism is now becoming quite 'koshar' I think.

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/05/why-is-science-growing-comfortable-with-panpsychism-everything-is-conscious/


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So why the thaw toward panpsychism over the past few years? Possibly, panpsychism offers a way to be a naturalist (nature is all there is) without the absurdities of physicalism (everything in nature must be physical). The panpsychists who are gaining attention are, generally speaking, naturalists.

Consciousness, for the panpsychist, is the intrinsic nature of matter. There’s just matter, on this view, nothing supernatural or spiritual. But matter can be described from two perspectives. Physical science describes matter “from the outside,” in terms of its behavior. But matter “from the inside”—i.e., in terms of its intrinsic nature—is constituted of forms of consciousness.

What this offers us is a beautifully simple, elegant way of integrating consciousness into our scientific worldview, of marrying what we know about ourselves from the inside and what science tells us about matter from the outside.

But dropping physicalism likely entails some changes. Panpsychists need not be Darwinists, for example. That is, they need not account for human consciousness either as a trait that evolved to help ancestors of humans survive on the savannah or as a byproduct of such a trait.

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Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2023, 05:27:41 AM »
I'd suggest that Sriram's position isn't affected by that because the guidance isn't about anything beneficial. That doesn't deal with there being no evidence of such s thing,, nor that the argumeng implies an infinite address.

The fact that complexity arises and organisms adapt to their environment (plasticity) is evidence of consciousness and intelligence. Dismissing everything as random or as happenstance is ridiculous.

Infinite regress cannot be avoided in any case, so that cannot be used as an excuse to dismiss consciousness being the driver of evolution, emergence and complexity.

torridon

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2023, 08:25:03 AM »
The fact that complexity arises and organisms adapt to their environment (plasticity) is evidence of consciousness and intelligence. Dismissing everything as random or as happenstance is ridiculous.


The assertion that consciousness or intelligence is evident in adaptation is not supported by any evidence.  You are just asserting the claim.  Mutations in DNA are random with respect to their consequences for future generations.  This randomness does not align with the idea of intelligent planning and the fact that mutations can lead to both harmful consequences for individuals, such as cancer, whilst also driving adaptation across populations are simply inevitable consequences.  You might as well try to argue that glass shattering on impact, rather than bending, is evidence of intelligence or consciousness.

Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2023, 01:33:10 PM »


https://www.ucdavis.edu/food/news/study-challenges-evolutionary-theory-dna-mutations-are-random#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWe%20always%20thought%20of%20mutation,way%20that%20benefits%20the%20plant.

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DNA mutations are not random as previously thought

Findings change our understanding of evolution

“We always thought of mutation as basically random across the genome,” said Grey Monroe, an assistant professor in the UC Davis Department of Plant Sciences who is lead author on the paper. “It turns out that mutation is very non-random and it’s non-random in a way that benefits the plant. It’s a totally new way of thinking about mutation.”

“At first glance, what we found seemed to contradict established theory that initial mutations are entirely random and that only natural selection determines which mutations are observed in organisms,” said Detlef Weigel, scientific director at Max Planck Institute and senior author on the study.

Instead of randomness they found patches of the genome with low mutation rates. In those patches, they were surprised to discover an over-representation of essential genes, such as those involved in cell growth and gene expression.

“These are the really important regions of the genome,” Monroe said. “The areas that are the most biologically important are the ones being protected from mutation.”

The areas are also sensitive to the harmful effects of new mutations. “DNA damage repair seems therefore to be particularly effective in these regions,” Weigel added.

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2023, 01:50:57 PM »
The fact that complexity arises and organisms adapt to their environment (plasticity) is evidence of consciousness and intelligence. Dismissing everything as random or as happenstance is ridiculous.

Infinite regress cannot be avoided in any case, so that cannot be used as an excuse to dismiss consciousness being the driver of evolution, emergence and complexity.
However, the impersonal "consciousness and intelligence" that you argue for does seem to involve a degree of deviousness and deliberate maliciousness. You may then say that I am personalising the impersonal, yet your very use of the word 'intelligence' immediately personalises the situation.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2023, 02:05:46 PM »
However, the impersonal "consciousness and intelligence" that you argue for does seem to involve a degree of deviousness and deliberate maliciousness. You may then say that I am personalising the impersonal, yet your very use of the word 'intelligence' immediately personalises the situation.


I don't see why it should personalize the issue.... 

Deviousness and maliciousness are highly subjective and relative concepts. A lion killing the little cubs of its rival or a just born fawn, does seem cruel. But that is nature. That does not however preclude consciousness or intelligence.

Even among humans many very intelligent people are devious and even evil. Why should consciousness always be benevolent?

Many atheists have more Christianity baggage in their minds than many Christians....


Maeght

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2023, 02:25:15 PM »

https://www.ucdavis.edu/food/news/study-challenges-evolutionary-theory-dna-mutations-are-random#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWe%20always%20thought%20of%20mutation,way%20that%20benefits%20the%20plant.

**********

DNA mutations are not random as previously thought

Findings change our understanding of evolution

“We always thought of mutation as basically random across the genome,” said Grey Monroe, an assistant professor in the UC Davis Department of Plant Sciences who is lead author on the paper. “It turns out that mutation is very non-random and it’s non-random in a way that benefits the plant. It’s a totally new way of thinking about mutation.”

“At first glance, what we found seemed to contradict established theory that initial mutations are entirely random and that only natural selection determines which mutations are observed in organisms,” said Detlef Weigel, scientific director at Max Planck Institute and senior author on the study.

Instead of randomness they found patches of the genome with low mutation rates. In those patches, they were surprised to discover an over-representation of essential genes, such as those involved in cell growth and gene expression.

“These are the really important regions of the genome,” Monroe said. “The areas that are the most biologically important are the ones being protected from mutation.”

The areas are also sensitive to the harmful effects of new mutations. “DNA damage repair seems therefore to be particularly effective in these regions,” Weigel added.

***********

It's an interesting topic - that some genes may be less liable to mutations than others. Doesn't suggest intelligence though does it?

Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2023, 03:14:10 PM »


Mutations are non random....that's what the article says. This is quite contrary to what many of you have been claiming... 

Maeght

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2023, 04:38:37 PM »

Mutations are non random....that's what the article says. This is quite contrary to what many of you have been claiming...

There are factors which mean it isn't purely random as I understand it. Still no indication of intelligence involved though.

Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2023, 04:54:09 PM »
There are factors which mean it isn't purely random as I understand it. Still no indication of intelligence involved though.



If there is an active response to the environment prompting suitable adaptations in phenotype....that is intelligence. 

Maeght

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2023, 05:06:15 PM »


If there is an active response to the environment prompting suitable adaptations in phenotype....that is intelligence.

If the response is directed by the organism, yes, but if it isn't, then where is the intelligence?

Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2023, 05:04:34 AM »
If the response is directed by the organism, yes, but if it isn't, then where is the intelligence?


Whether an organism does it or a cell does it....it is active response and therefore ....intelligence.  There are different levels of consciousness and intelligence.


torridon

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2023, 06:50:48 AM »

Mutations are non random....that's what the article says. This is quite contrary to what many of you have been claiming...

Maybe not true random, but very few things in nature are in fact truly random.  So, if the distribution of mutations in a genome is not perfectly random that just indicates some underlying causal mechanism at work.  You can't extrapolate from a poorly understood mechanism to mutations being carefully and intelligently chosen without losing all your street cred.  This sort of thinking comes from the same school that had us believing the Sun was being pulled across the sky by teams of invisible angels before we discovered the actual mechanism, gravity

Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2023, 07:07:49 AM »


Mechanisms are just mechanisms. How do mechanisms get created? The fact that complex mechanisms exist in the first place shows intelligence at work. I mean this in a philosophical sense and not in a religious sense. 


torridon

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2023, 07:19:04 AM »

Mechanisms are just mechanisms. How do mechanisms get created? The fact that complex mechanisms exist in the first place shows intelligence at work. I mean this in a philosophical sense and not in a religious sense.

This just leads to an infinite regress. What created the mechanism ? An intelligence.  What created the intelligence ? A higher intelligence.  And so on.

Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2023, 09:31:13 AM »


Yes...infinite regress is unavoidable regardless of the explanation.  We cannot know ultimate answers....period!  We don't even see reality, how can we expect to understand it?

Some of you people however seem to be immensely satisfied with the..... 'it all just an accident and all laws, mechanisms and processes just happened by themselves. They just manifested from nowhere. Nothing before that absolutely'....explanation!  ::)

Well....!!

Udayana

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2023, 11:19:07 AM »

Yes...infinite regress is unavoidable regardless of the explanation.  We cannot know ultimate answers....period!  We don't even see reality, how can we expect to understand it?

Some of you people however seem to be immensely satisfied with the..... 'it all just an accident and all laws, mechanisms and processes just happened by themselves. They just manifested from nowhere. Nothing before that absolutely'....explanation!  ::)

Well....!!

hmm.. it seems to me that most people seem to know when to stop and say "we don't know", it's only some that take results of limited experiments and analyses and declare that their subsequent speculations are somehow confirmation of the mantras they have been pushing.

What if there is no explanation? What is the "explanation" of maths? We don't have explanations we only have models that can be shown to work or not.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Bramble

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2023, 02:03:38 PM »
Yes, I think a whole philosophy could be contained in the words ‘just stop.’

I’m fond of these lines from the Zen monk and poet Ryokan:

"I have nothing to report, my friends.
If you want to find the meaning, stop chasing after so many things."


No doubt he’d have included the demand for ‘ultimate answers’ in the many things we chase without cease. If we did find such things, what on earth would we do with them?


Nearly Sane

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2023, 02:11:08 PM »
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

Ludwig Wittgenstein


Dicky Underpants

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2023, 05:43:28 PM »
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

Ludwig Wittgenstein
Paraphrased once by Colin Wilson as "If you've got nothing to say, keep your mouth shut."
(I should say that CW's views were not so far removed from those of Sriram. Not that I'd have much sympathy with Wilson's views now)
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Maeght

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2023, 07:51:45 PM »

Whether an organism does it or a cell does it....it is active response and therefore ....intelligence.  There are different levels of consciousness and intelligence.

It's a response. What do you mean by an active response? If it is not directed then it isn't intelligence as far as I can see. No evidence of it being directed is there?

Outrider

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2023, 09:28:29 PM »
The fact that complexity arises and organisms adapt to their environment (plasticity) is evidence of consciousness and intelligence.

Individual organisms do not adapt to their environment to any great degree - species adapt to their environment over time. In what way is 'complexity' (how are you measuring that, by the way?) evidence of a directing consciousness?

Quote
Dismissing everything as random or as happenstance is ridiculous.

Despite the fact that it's demonstrably capable of explaining the observed phenomena? That's not a proof that it's correct, but it certainly blows the idea that it's 'ridiculous' out of the water.

O.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 10:25:56 PM by Nearly Sane »
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Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2023, 05:10:32 AM »
It's a response. What do you mean by an active response? If it is not directed then it isn't intelligence as far as I can see. No evidence of it being directed is there?


It is directed towards survival. Cells direct the change of phenotype in line with the environmental requirements. This shows presence of consciousness and intelligence at a basic level.  How can this be accidental?

Sriram

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Re: Adaptation
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2023, 05:19:05 AM »
Individual organisms do not adapt to their environment to any great degree - species adapt to their environment over time. In what way is 'complexity' (how are you measuring that, by the way?) evidence of a directing consciousness?

Despite the fact that it's demonstrably capable of explaining the observed phenomena? That's not a proof that it's correct, but it certainly blows the idea that it's 'ridiculous' out of the water.

O.


Individual organisms do adapt (chameleons). Acquired traits do get passed on to progeny. Epigenetics is quite clear. 

We cannot explain complexity purely through natural (for survival!) means.   It can only be explained through development of consciousness. Merely labeling it as 'emergence' is neither here nor there. It is just a 'catch all' phrase again, explaining nothing at all.