Author Topic: Sturgeon to resign as FM  (Read 28687 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #325 on: March 15, 2023, 03:53:56 PM »
Your lack of understanding of politics as well as Potter means that you are merely a Professor of Wishful Thinking.
I think I understand the politics very well - Forbes has created an arms-length relationship to the issue. She's not signed the letter personally and she's only allowed to it be 'on behalf of her campaign team'. Regan on the other hand, is literally signed up to the issue.

Therefore Forbes has distanced herself from appearing to undermine the credibility of the vote - why? because if she loses she can pivot to Trump, if she wins she hasn't undermined her own victory. Clever politics. From what I can see, she's allowed Regan to be her useful idiot on the matter.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 03:57:29 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #326 on: March 15, 2023, 03:55:58 PM »
And yet, while the gender stuff was a bonus, no it wasn't the reference as regards marks. That reference was to the books. So I award you a  T.
The you will have to enlighten us all, as sometimes the inner workings of your brain can be as impenetrable as Vlad's.

And while you are at it, you haven't marked my second bite:

1. Vaguely competent, but disagree with - Forbes
2. Vaguely agree with, but doesn't seem competent - Regan
3. Doesn't seem competent, and disagree with - Yousaf

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #327 on: March 15, 2023, 04:00:23 PM »
The you will have to enlighten us all, as sometimes the inner workings of your brain can be as impenetrable as Vlad's.

And while you are at it, you haven't marked my second bite:

1. Vaguely competent, but disagree with - Forbes
2. Vaguely agree with, but doesn't seem competent - Regan
3. Doesn't seem competent, and disagree with - Yousaf
it's nothing to do with the 'inner workings' of my brain. It's to do with your lack of knowledge of the HP books.


ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #328 on: March 15, 2023, 04:02:30 PM »
it's nothing to do with the 'inner workings' of my brain. It's to do with your lack of knowledge of the HP books.
Then do please enlighten us all - I think I know the books quite well, it is just that your teasers on the matter seem totally opaque.

And again I ask:

1. Vaguely competent, but disagree with - Forbes
2. Vaguely agree with, but doesn't seem competent - Regan
3. Doesn't seem competent, and disagree with - Yousaf

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #329 on: March 15, 2023, 04:08:24 PM »
Then do please enlighten us all - I think I know the books quite well, it is just that your teasers on the matter seem totally opaque.

And again I ask:

1. Vaguely competent, but disagree with - Forbes
2. Vaguely agree with, but doesn't seem competent - Regan
3. Doesn't seem competent, and disagree with - Yousaf
Great, so you know the books quite well. Outline the award of the house prize in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone referencing the points awarded to Gryffindor at the end of term feast, and how it relates to your idea about exam marks.

A single length of parchment will do.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #330 on: March 15, 2023, 04:17:18 PM »
Great, so you know the books quite well. Outline the award of the house prize in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone referencing the points awarded to Gryffindor at the end of term feast, and how it relates to your idea about exam marks.

A single length of parchment will do.
1. Vaguely competent, but disagree with - Forbes
2. Vaguely agree with, but doesn't seem competent - Regan
3. Doesn't seem competent, and disagree with - Yousaf

Almost as if you are using avoidance tactics NS

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #331 on: March 15, 2023, 07:03:41 PM »
Great, so you know the books quite well. Outline the award of the house prize in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone referencing the points awarded to Gryffindor at the end of term feast, and how it relates to your idea about exam marks.

A single length of parchment will do.
But you deducted points on the basis of me getting a question wrong - as far as I understand it house points were never removed in that way. Deduction of points was for breaking rules or misdemeanours, not for getting a question wrong. Largely points were added for something over and above in the extra-curricular space but think there may have been the odd example of points awarded for exceptional academic work.

Now if you were being super, super subtle you might have equated Regan standing up to the SNP on their process with Neville standing up to his friends, which as you and I both know generated the 10 points that won the house cup for Gryffindor.

BUT, and here is a but BUT - the Harry Potter references started before you'd posted the Regan letter - it was in response to me 'oo, ask me, ask me' which was (as you rightly pointed out) was a very Hermione kind of thing to say.

BUT that was before the Regan letter and my response to it was posted so unless you can read the future I cannot see how you could have pre-empted a thread leading to a connection between Regan standing up to her friends (the SNP) and Neville standing up to his friends.

Still waiting on your marking of:

1. Vaguely competent, but disagree with - Forbes
2. Vaguely agree with, but doesn't seem competent - Regan
3. Doesn't seem competent, and disagree with - Yousaf


Nearly Sane

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #333 on: March 16, 2023, 08:47:07 AM »
And more popcorn is required


https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/10372263/snp-leadership-vote-watchdog-kate-forbes-secrecy-row/
My money is on cock-up rather than conspiracy.

The SNP haven't had a leadership election for decades and the last time their membership was two men and a dog. Also I don't think anyone was really expecting an election now rather than in a few years, so they will have been caught on the backfoot.

I suspect they've also woken up to the fact that although they've been used to doing stuff with decent resources for admin in government, this vote cannot use government resources, only SNP party resources which will be limited. I've also noted that other parties have had problems identifying how many members they have and who can vote. This is exacerbated with parties that rely greatly on constituency organisations where national level lists are a collation of local lists. Not sure if the SNP works in this way, but a brief glance at their rules suggest it might.

The vote may be an almighty mess due to incompetence but that isn't the same as it being rigged - to rig an election, I would suggest, actually requires competence and you wouldn't do it by stopping some legitimate members getting to vote - why? Because those people not receiving ballot papers will go straight to the press and also you'd need to know which way those who get ballot papers, and those that do not, will vote - I don't think that is possible to know reliably.

But then right from the start of this thread I've criticised the speed of the process - and this is one of the consequences. - pretty difficult to put in place a process within a few weeks from a standing start and when you haven't done anything similar for decades, realistically if at all.

That said - sure they should have independent oversight of the process - whenever I've voted in Union elections or (I think) in Labour party elections this has been run through an independent organisation, often the Electoral Reform Society.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #334 on: March 16, 2023, 10:01:33 AM »
My money is on cock-up rather than conspiracy.

The SNP haven't had a leadership election for decades and the last time their membership was two men and a dog. Also I don't think anyone was really expecting an election now rather than in a few years, so they will have been caught on the backfoot.

I suspect they've also woken up to the fact that although they've been used to doing stuff with decent resources for admin in government, this vote cannot use government resources, only SNP party resources which will be limited. I've also noted that other parties have had problems identifying how many members they have and who can vote. This is exacerbated with parties that rely greatly on constituency organisations where national level lists are a collation of local lists. Not sure if the SNP works in this way, but a brief glance at their rules suggest it might.

The vote may be an almighty mess due to incompetence but that isn't the same as it being rigged - to rig an election, I would suggest, actually requires competence and you wouldn't do it by stopping some legitimate members getting to vote - why? Because those people not receiving ballot papers will go straight to the press and also you'd need to know which way those who get ballot papers, and those that do not, will vote - I don't think that is possible to know reliably.

But then right from the start of this thread I've criticised the speed of the process - and this is one of the consequences. - pretty difficult to put in place a process within a few weeks from a standing start and when you haven't done anything similar for decades, realistically if at all.

That said - sure they should have independent oversight of the process - whenever I've voted in Union elections or (I think) in Labour party elections this has been run through an independent organisation, often the Electoral Reform Society.
What we have here is a false dichotomy -caused by thinking that politicians's are saying what they mean, and by cincentrating on this being all about the election process.

I doubt that Forbes or the vast majority of her supporters think there is a widespread manipulation of the votes. Rather is playing into trying to pick up the second votes from Regan supporters by appearing as definitely not a continuity candidate - there's been some mumblings amongst the more imaginative of Regan's supporters that the attacks by Yousaf and Forbes on each other are all a front and that both are chosen continuity candidates.

Even Regan's supporters, well the ones in the SNP, aren't really arguing that the votes being highly manipulated. There are ones outside the SNP who think that Yousaf is a CIA plant.

The overall issue is much more to do with the whole problem of having had a married couple who were leader and CEO. I've always been amazed that more wasn't made of this by the other parties as Sturgeon's husband is Caesar's wife.

You then overlay that with the various previous problems, the Dalmond case and who knew what when, the alphabetties in the Salmond case, the 'missing' £600,000 and the police investigations into that, the £107,000 loan from Murrell that Sturgeon was apparently unaware of when it was made, an ongoing question about membership numbers, resignations from the finance committee due to not being able to see the finances.

The relatively short election process is then seen as at least an attempt to reduce the possibility of such things being raised.


Your point about independent oversight is interesting as the argument from the SNP central team is that it is done independently by MiVoice. The challenge to them has been that MiVoice do not appear to be validating the electorate at all. It's not clear what the situation is - which then links bacl to the lack of transparency in the election being seen as a symptom of the overall lack of transparency.





ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #335 on: March 16, 2023, 10:59:05 AM »
What we have here is a false dichotomy -caused by thinking that politicians's are saying what they mean, and by cincentrating on this being all about the election process.

I doubt that Forbes or the vast majority of her supporters think there is a widespread manipulation of the votes. Rather is playing into trying to pick up the second votes from Regan supporters by appearing as definitely not a continuity candidate - there's been some mumblings amongst the more imaginative of Regan's supporters that the attacks by Yousaf and Forbes on each other are all a front and that both are chosen continuity candidates.

Even Regan's supporters, well the ones in the SNP, aren't really arguing that the votes being highly manipulated. There are ones outside the SNP who think that Yousaf is a CIA plant.
But the article you linked to is headlined (my emphasis):

'SNP leadership vote secrecy row twist as Kate Forbes demands independent watchdog amid ‘rigged ballot’ fears'

Rigged ballot is clearly a claim of conspiracy, not just of cock-up.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #336 on: March 16, 2023, 11:47:52 AM »
Not sure I can afford more popcorn


https://wingsoverscotland.com/rogue-trooper/

Gordon

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #337 on: March 16, 2023, 12:05:38 PM »
It's all become a bit farcical - perhaps Larry, Moe and Curly are secretly running the (shit)show.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #338 on: March 16, 2023, 12:08:26 PM »
It's all become a bit farcical - perhaps Larry, Moe and Curly are secretly running the (shit)show.

Indeed

 https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1636142871773429761.html

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #339 on: March 16, 2023, 12:23:47 PM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #340 on: March 16, 2023, 12:34:05 PM »
It's all become a bit farcical - perhaps Larry, Moe and Curly are secretly running the (shit)show.
I agree - and I come back to what seems to be the hub of the issue - that a party that hadn't run a leadership election for decades, and never run one of this magnitude decided it was sensible to complete the whole process, which needed a members vote in just over 6 weeks. And the clock started ticking in an unexpected manner (a sudden resignation), rather than an entirely expected event, e.g. a leader resigning following an election defeat.

Compare with a similar, out of the blue need for an election - e.g. the sudden death of John Smith - the Labour party took about twice as long over the process and they'd had the experience of a similar process just two years earlier.

In 2005 the tories took over 6 months to elect a new leader from the point that Michael Howard announced he was resigning.

Having a longer contest would have had two massive benefits - first, in the absence of a clear frontrunner and with the massive shadow cast over the party first by Salmond and then by Sturgeon, it would have allowed more time for relatively unknown, but credible candidates, to make their case and shine. This is what Labour did in 1994 and ended up with Blair who didn't have a huge profile before the contest, and similarly what the Tories did in 2005 and ended up with Cameron, again relatively unknown at the start of the process. But also taking longer would have allowed a proper robust process for the election to be developed and rolled out.

I simply cannot understand why the SNP determined that they needed to get the process over in 6 weeks when there was no power vacuum and I think most people would have been perfectly happy for Sturgeon to carry on as FM for a few months - it wasn't as if she was being forced out.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 12:36:37 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #341 on: March 16, 2023, 12:52:46 PM »
I agree - and I come back to what seems to be the hub of the issue - that a party that hadn't run a leadership election for decades, and never run one of this magnitude decided it was sensible to complete the whole process, which needed a members vote in just over 6 weeks. And the clock started ticking in an unexpected manner (a sudden resignation), rather than an entirely expected event, e.g. a leader resigning following an election defeat.

Compare with a similar, out of the blue need for an election - e.g. the sudden death of John Smith - the Labour party took about twice as long over the process and they'd had the experience of a similar process just two years earlier.

In 2005 the tories took over 6 months to elect a new leader from the point that Michael Howard announced he was resigning.

Having a longer contest would have had two massive benefits - first, in the absence of a clear frontrunner and with the massive shadow cast over the party first by Salmond and then by Sturgeon, it would have allowed more time for relatively unknown, but credible candidates, to make their case and shine. This is what Labour did in 1994 and ended up with Blair who didn't have a huge profile before the contest, and similarly what the Tories did in 2005 and ended up with Cameron, again relatively unknown at the start of the process. But also taking longer would have allowed a proper robust process for the election to be developed and rolled out.

I simply cannot understand why the SNP determined that they needed to get the process over in 6 weeks when there was no power vacuum and I think most people would have been perfectly happy for Sturgeon to carry on as FM for a few months - it wasn't as if she was being forced out.
As already covered, they didn't want a long process as they didn't want to end up exactly where they have.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #342 on: March 16, 2023, 12:58:39 PM »
As already covered, they didn't want a long process as they didn't want to end up exactly where they have.
That makes no sense and let's not forget that your original view was that the short process was to ensure that Robertson (who in your view was the heir apparent) got in quickly. Robertson never even stood.

If we are talking about competence of running a process - it isn't rocket science to recognise that if you try to put together a process that you haven't had to run for decades at breakneck speed there is far greater likelihood of it all going PeteTong than if you take more time over it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #343 on: March 16, 2023, 01:05:44 PM »
That makes no sense and let's not forget that your original view was that the short process was to ensure that Robertson (who in your view was the heir apparent) got in quickly. Robertson never even stood.

If we are talking about competence of running a process - it isn't rocket science to recognise that if you try to put together a process that you haven't had to run for decades at breakneck speed there is far greater likelihood of it all going PeteTong than if you take more time over it.

Happily stick my hands up and say I got the Robertson candidacy wrong, as I didn't think they would be so foolish not to have checked that he felt he could stand, and tgat they were even more panicked.  That I got that wrong is irrelevant as to whether they went for a short campaign.

I am slightly baffled as to why you think that going for a short campaign wouldn't be motivated by wanting to avoud what has happened. I didn't think you were quite that politically naive. But then given that you seem to only see the election as an isolated incident in Scottish politics rather than interwoven into the mad farcical tapestry, I suppose that naivety is inevitable.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #344 on: March 16, 2023, 01:29:25 PM »
I am slightly baffled as to why you think that going for a short campaign wouldn't be motivated by wanting to avoud what has happened. I didn't think you were quite that politically naive. But then given that you seem to only see the election as an isolated incident in Scottish politics rather than interwoven into the mad farcical tapestry, I suppose that naivety is inevitable.
I really can't understand why you are baffled. These are the key issues as I see them.

1. Any process for running an election for PM or FM will receive huge media and public interest and scrutiny and therefore you cannot expect any failures of process to simply not be revealed, commented on and potentially criticised.

2. The SNP has never run a process of this magnitude before and not run any leadership election for decades so has no recent experience of running the process successfully.

3. Running a process of this nature is complex and the starting point - knowing who your membership is - is often of itself challenging as other parties (with far more experience of leadership elections) have shown.

Given the above, you can either:

A. Take your time to get the process right, noting that if you get it wrong those issues will be revealed. And also noting that there is no particular urgency OR

B. Run before you can walk - try to complete a process that you've never run before at a timetable far faster than any equivalent party has thought it sensible to follow. Noting again that if you get it wrong those issues will be revealed.

Hardly rocket science that the correct answer is A. Bonkers why anyone (whether you or the SNP would think ... hmmm ... yet let's go for B).

And that's before you add in the fact that there was no heir apparent, no obvious front running so taking your time allows more candidates to develop a campaign and gain recognition. Had Labour run at this pace in 1997, would they have selected Blair - hmm maybe not. Had the Tories run at this pace in 2005, would they have selected Cameron - almost certainly not.


ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #345 on: March 16, 2023, 01:46:32 PM »
That I got that wrong is irrelevant as to whether they went for a short campaign.
Then why don't you tell us why they went for a short campaign as I simply cannot fathom a reason other than to slide in an heir apparent before anyone else gained traction. But there was no heir apparent - even Robertson (who didn't even stand) wasn't the overwhelming favourite that an heir apparent would imply.

Other than that I cannot fathom any sensible reason for, and plenty against - the most obvious being that it makes it far harder to put together a robust process, when you have no experience, in weeks rather than months. And doing it quickly was never going to prevent scrutiny and criticism but would make it more likely that it would be a sh*t show.

jeremyp

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #346 on: March 16, 2023, 01:57:40 PM »
Then why don't you tell us why they went for a short campaign as I simply cannot fathom a reason other than to slide in an heir apparent before anyone else gained traction. But there was no heir apparent - even Robertson (who didn't even stand) wasn't the overwhelming favourite that an heir apparent would imply.

Other than that I cannot fathom any sensible reason for, and plenty against - the most obvious being that it makes it far harder to put together a robust process, when you have no experience, in weeks rather than months. And doing it quickly was never going to prevent scrutiny and criticism but would make it more likely that it would be a sh*t show.

The obvious reason is that Nicola Sturgeon is a lame duck First Leader. Most of the examples previously cited of long campaigns took place while the party was in opposition.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #347 on: March 16, 2023, 02:13:38 PM »
The obvious reason is that Nicola Sturgeon is a lame duck First Leader. Most of the examples previously cited of long campaigns took place while the party was in opposition.
Err ... how about the Tory election in the summer - that took months. And Boris really was a lame duck.

Actually I don't think Sturgeon is a lame duck - following her resignation she retained high levels of support. Indeed in the most recent polling the electorate as a whole and specifically SNP voters all though that Sturgeon would make a better FM than any of the three candidates ... by a country mile.

I sense no clamour for her to be gone yesterday. Had she said in mid Feb; 'I plan to resign but will remain in office until the process of selecting my successor will be completed. This will be in the early summer' then I can't see many people having an issue with that at all.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 02:21:59 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #348 on: March 16, 2023, 02:30:57 PM »
Err ... how about the Tory election in the summer - that took months. And Boris really was a lame duck.
And the 2019 tory election (that went to the members) took longer.

And had the 2016 tory election gone to the members, rather than May ending up as the only candidate, that process would have taken from 24th June to 9th Sept, again considerably longer than the SNP election.

And even more relevant - when Mark Drakeford replaced Carwyn Jones the process took nigh on 8 months, from Jones' resignation on 24th April until the election was complete on 6th Dec.

I may be wrong but I cannot think of a leadership election that required a membership ballot attempting to be completed in 6 weeks from a complete standing start - or in fact from a running start (i.e. where the resignation of the previous leader was clearly anticipated). Perhaps fine if you have processes and experience of running those processes in place (albeit still challenging). Completely bonkers when you have no experience.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 02:36:07 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #349 on: March 16, 2023, 02:49:10 PM »
Your point about independent oversight is interesting as the argument from the SNP central team is that it is done independently by MiVoice. The challenge to them has been that MiVoice do not appear to be validating the electorate at all. It's not clear what the situation is - which then links bacl to the lack of transparency in the election being seen as a symptom of the overall lack of transparency.
I've no idea exactly what MiVoice do and don't do.

However I'm not sure that an independent oversight organisation will (or indeed can) validate the electorate in an independent manner. Simply because they would have to rely on the organisation that they are supposed to be independent of (the political party) to give them the membership list. Sure they could randomly pick some people on the list and contact them to check they were members, but it would be very hard to do the reverse - i.e. contact people not on the membership list to see whether they were in fact members. Realistically I think the oversight would be in effect 'self declared' - valid members coming forward because they have not received ballot papers.

My experience is that the independent organisation runs the process - they get the list of the electorate from the union/political party, but the independent organisation sends out the ballot papers, which are returned to the independent organisation, not the union/political party and the independent organisation are responsible for verifying and counting the ballot papers sent back to generate the result.

In my union the whole ballot process is run by Civica Election Services on behalf of the union.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 04:52:26 PM by ProfessorDavey »