Sturgeon to resign as FM

[ProfessorDavey]

That's the question I originally asked. It feels off. And I think it would feel more obviously off if Forbes had done similar, and I not sure why I think it would feel different. As Outrider mentions it feels performative.

I know what you mean, and I guess the issue will be whether it is a one-off. I get that this is a particularly big moment for Yousaf and his family and (frankly his broader community), so I understand why he might want to publicly mark this with his family in a manner that is the way his family would do things.

We've had plenty of similar photo-ops from others - whether May and her husband off to church with photographers in entourage - or Sunak helping out at his local temple. Perhaps the difference is that those were more 'public' rather than photographic private family moment.

By the way I think Forbes saying grace may also feel similar. I think part of the issue is that neither activity seems 'normal' to most of the population - we don't fast and pray when we break that fast and most people don't say grace before eating. Now that isn't to say that this isn't completely normal an acceptable for individuals who do engage in those activities, but they do feel private, rather than public.

[Nearly Sane]

I know what you mean, and I guess the issue will be whether it is a one-off. I get that this is a particularly big moment for Yousaf and his family and (frankly his broader community), so I understand why he might want to publicly mark this with his family in a manner that is the way his family would do things.

We've had plenty of similar photo-ops from others - whether May and her husband off to church with photographers in entourage - or Sunak helping out at his local temple. Perhaps the difference is that those were more 'public' rather than photographic private family moment.

By the way I think Forbes saying grace may also feel similar. I think part of the issue is that neither activity seems 'normal' to most of the population - we don't fast and pray when we break that fast and most people don't say grace before eating. Now that isn't to say that this isn't completely normal an acceptable for individuals who do engage in those activities, but they do feel private, rather than public.

I think that's a good point about whether it's a one off, and I suspect we will get regular photo ops with Yousaf doing stuff likd May and Sunak. I think for this it's what seems to me should be private. I'm sure his family were happy to have the picture tweeted but were it me, I might say that it was a family matter.

It being about his wider community is a good point as well and I think is part of why it would feel more off if Forbes had posted her familiy saying grace.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think that's a good poimt about whether it's a one off, and I suspect we will get regular photo ops with Yousaf doing stuff likd May and Sunak. I think for this it's what seems to me should be private. I'm sure his family were happy to have the picture tweeted but were it me, I might say that it was a family matter.

It being about his wider community is a good point as well and I think is part of why it would feel more off if Forbes had posted her familiy saying grace.

I think there is also a 'public interest' in the new. What do I mean by that - well Yousaf is the first muslim PM or FM so I think there is some general public interest in what that means, how he might be different in the way he leads his life compared to previous PMs or FMs on the basis that he's the first muslim. So, there is almost an element of education for the public many of whom might have no real idea, have very little interaction with muslims etc.

That argument doesn't work with Forbes as she'd just be the latest in a long line of PMs (and I expect FM) who had been christian to a greater or lesser extent. So I suspect there have been plenty of PMs who would have routinely said grace so there is nothing new to see there. So were Forbes to tweet this (not that I think she ever did in previous roles) it would be all about her showing she's a christian rather than a broader interest in the first muslim in a role of that seniority, in other words someone from a community that had never previously been represented in that role.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I would agree with PD. I think it was done to try to normalise the act of Muslim prayer to a mainly non-Muslim population as the actions of prayer seem really normal to Muslims but looks a bit strange if you are not familiar with it. Possibly Yousaf thought this picture may go some way to making it seem less unfamiliar, strange, worrying to see men lined up to pray. I remember a while ago reading stories about a few people freaking out on planes in relation to Muslims engaging in normal religious acts e.g reciting the Quran in Arabic on a plane.

It is also possibly a way of relating to the Muslim population by mentioning fasting and showing them lining up to pray i.e. to say to the Muslims that Yousaf's faith is still very important to him and he is still relatable - he is doing what a lot of them would be doing in their own houses. Possibly because many Muslims will think there are policies he supports that would seem at odds with his faith - according to their interpretation.     

What is interesting is that his wife appears to be standing in the same line as the men, but the angle of the photo means she also seems to have been mostly obscured by Yousaf. All the times I have prayed with Muslims or seen it on TV, the ladies stand behind the men rather than in the same line. It's almost as if Yousaf does not follow that tradition but neither does he want to publicise it too overtly if he doesn't follow that tradition.

From my experience, the only time men pray in the same line as women or behind them is on Hajj - when the call to prayer is heard while you are doing the ritual of circumambulation of the Kaaba you all stop and pray where you are, and in that instance men and women could be next to each other or behind each other.

[ProfessorDavey]

I would agree with PD. I think it was done to try to normalise the act of Muslim prayer to a mainly non-Muslim population as the actions of prayer seem really normal to Muslims but looks a bit strange if you are not familiar with it. Possibly Yousaf thought this picture may go some way to making it seem less unfamiliar, strange, worrying to see men lined up to pray. I remember a while ago reading stories about a few people freaking out on planes in relation to Muslims engaging in normal religious acts e.g reciting the Quran in Arabic on a plane.

Indeed - and there is a short piece on the BBC live stream linking to the tweet which is basically an education piece for people unfamiliar with islamic practice:

"Humza Yousaf's family are among millions of Muslims in the UK and around the world who are marking Ramadan, one of the holiest months in the Islamic calendar.

It involves a period of fasting before Eid al-Fitr, which translates as "the festival of the breaking of the fast", on 21 April.

Muslims have an early morning meal before dawn, known as suhoor or sehri.

They do not eat or drink anything - including water - until they break their fast after sunset for the evening meal, called iftar or fitoor."

I suspect there are plenty of people who have little understanding of this, but it is helpful to have this brought out into the open more - not least because many workplaces will now have muslims who are fasting and small adjustments to workplace practice (including simply being sensitive) can go a long way to support an inclusive workplace that functions better.

It is also possibly a way of relating to the Muslim population by mentioning fasting and showing them lining up to pray i.e. to say to the Muslims that Yousaf's faith is still very important to him and he is still relatable - he is doing what a lot of them would be doing in their own houses. Possibly because many Muslims will think there are policies he supports that would seem at odds with his faith - according to their interpretation.

Perhaps, although I'd be rather less convinced that the muslim community in Scotland needs much educating on the importance of Yousaf's faith - I think he's been pretty clear on this throughout his time in politics, not least wearing traditional dress for some ceremonial situations when many would have just worn a suit.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Perhaps, although I'd be rather less convinced that the muslim community in Scotland needs much educating on the importance of Yousaf's faith - I think he's been pretty clear on this throughout his time in politics, not least wearing traditional dress for some ceremonial situations when many would have just worn a suit.

I have not really followed what Yousaf has been doing. iI was thinking more reassurance than education though - as in just because he has moved up in the world he is still a practising Muslim first. And probably also a way of being a role model or motivating other Muslims to be aspirational and get involved in politics or whatever their interests are and letting them know that if they are law-abiding, they do not need to abandon their beliefs and they would be accepted / treated equally as practising Muslims by the tolerant non-Muslim majority in a democratic system.

[ProfessorDavey]

I have not really followed what Yousaf has been doing. iI was thinking more reassurance than education though - as in just because he has moved up in the world he is still a practising Muslim first. And probably also a way of being a role model or motivating other Muslims to be aspirational and get involved in politics or whatever their interests are and letting them know that if they are law-abiding, they do not need to abandon their beliefs and they would be accepted / treated equally as practising Muslims by the tolerant non-Muslim majority in a democratic system.

Sorry - never my intention to suggest they needed educating - that would be daft.

Yes I agree - but I think there is another aspect, which is reassurance to perhaps younger and more liberal muslims, that you can be muslim, think your faith is important but also agree with extending gay rights, transgender rights etc.

So I think Yousaf is a rather good example/role model for a complex range of individualities that I suspect many second/third generation immigrants, including but not limited to, muslims feel. That they are muslim, but also British (... or Scottish!!!), respect traditions and faith, but are also modern and liberal in outlook. And are ambitious and aspirational.

And I think there is also an important difference between Yousaf and Forbes, as indicated in the leadership election. Forbes said her faith comes first and her politics second. I don't believe Yousaf ever said that - I think he a politician who is also a practicing muslim, not a politician who is a practicing muslim first. Subtle but important difference.

[jeremyp]

Hmm. I thought we agreed that political posts were to be divided into "spiritual" and "temporal". I thought Vlad said not doing so would disadvantage religionists.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Sorry - never my intention to suggest they needed educating - that would be daft.

Yes I agree - but I think there is another aspect, which is reassurance to perhaps younger and more liberal muslims, that you can be muslim, think your faith is important but also agree with extending gay rights, transgender rights etc.

So I think Yousaf is a rather good example/role model for a complex range of individualities that I suspect many second/third generation immigrants, including but not limited to, muslims feel. That they are muslim, but also British (... or Scottish!!!), respect traditions and faith, but are also modern and liberal in outlook. And are ambitious and aspirational.

And I think there is also an important difference between Yousaf and Forbes, as indicated in the leadership election. Forbes said her faith comes first and her politics second. I don't believe Yousaf ever said that - I think he a politician who is also a practicing muslim, not a politician who is a practicing muslim first. Subtle but important difference.

I guess it depends on how different people define "practising Muslim first".

Some Muslims may feel that being a practising Muslim first means when you do your paid job you impose your religious views on non-Muslims, whereas other Muslims may think being a practising Muslim first is to do the job you are being paid to do.

There are some Muslims who refuse to work in a job that involves serving alcohol, and there are some Muslims who if they accept such a job, would see it as their Islamic duty (i.e. as a practising Muslim first) to do the job they are paid to do, rather than refuse to serve alcohol, e.g. if it was in the job responsibilities they were given before they took on the job. It may be that some employers value a particular Muslim member of the team for whatever add-value they bring to the firm, despite them refusing to carry out all their responsibilities of the role and might hire them anyway even if they stated at the interview that they do not want to personally serve alcohol.

In Yousaf's case, if he is being paid to represent people, the majority of whom are non-Muslims, then his job would presumably be to advocate for all the different people he represents. I haven't really been following Yousaf's career so I don't really know whether Yousaf interprets his faith in a way that is compatible with LGBTQ interests or if he is just doing the job he is being paid to do - as a politician. I know I certainly don't agree with his stance on self-ID for trans-identifying people.

[ProfessorDavey]

I guess it depends on how different people define "practising Muslim first".

Some Muslims may feel that being a practising Muslim first means when you do your paid job you impose your religious views on non-Muslims, whereas other Muslims may think being a practising Muslim first is to do the job you are being paid to do.

There are some Muslims who refuse to work in a job that involves serving alcohol, and there are some Muslims who if they accept such a job, would see it as their Islamic duty (i.e. as a practising Muslim first) to do the job they are paid to do, rather than refuse to serve alcohol, e.g. if it was in the job responsibilities they were given before they took on the job. It may be that some employers value a particular Muslim member of the team for whatever add-value they bring to the firm, despite them refusing to carry out all their responsibilities of the role and might hire them anyway even if they stated at the interview that they do not want to personally serve alcohol.

In Yousaf's case, if he is being paid to represent people, the majority of whom are non-Muslims, then his job would presumably be to advocate for all the different people he represents. I haven't really been following Yousaf's career so I don't really know whether Yousaf interprets his faith in a way that is compatible with LGBTQ interests or if he is just doing the job he is being paid to do - as a politician. I know I certainly don't agree with his stance on self-ID for trans-identifying people.

I think being a top politician, someone who aspires to and attains the top job, is rather more than 'doing the job he is paid to do'.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I think being a top politician, someone who aspires to and attains the top job, is rather more than 'doing the job he is paid to do'.

I meant doing the job he is paid to do in terms of the LGBTQ policies. I haven't followed his career so I don't know if he got into politics because of LGBTQ issues or if he views those issues as fairly minor that just come with the territory, and he is mainly interested in other political issues.

[Nearly Sane]

Robison to Finance


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/shona-robison-become-next-snp-29576770

[ProfessorDavey]

Robison to Finance


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/shona-robison-become-next-snp-29576770

Isn't she also Deputy.

[Nearly Sane]

Isn't she also Deputy.

Yep.

[Nearly Sane]

New cabinet

[ProfessorDavey]

New cabinet

The only ones on that list I think I've heard of before are:

Shona Robison (just)
Angus Robertson (of course)

So I must be misogynistic as I cannot name-check Jenny, Mairi, Mairi, Shirley-Anne or Angela. Oh, nope that's not right as I've also cannot name-check Michael or Neil either.

But this has nothing to do with sex, entirely to do with national profile. And there is a reason why I'd image Angus Robertson is the only person on that list that most people in my part of the world will have definitely heard of. Can you think why that might be, Chip?

[Nearly Sane]

The only ones on that list I think I've heard of before are:

Shona Robison (just)
Angus Robertson (of course)

So I must be misogynistic as I cannot name-check Jenny, Mairi, Mairi, Shirley-Anne or Angela. Oh, nope that's not right as I've also cannot name-check Michael or Neil either.

But this has nothing to do with sex, entirely to do with national profile. And there is a reason why I'd image Angus Robertson is the only person on that list that most people in my part of the world will have definitely heard of. Can you think why that might be, Chip?

I have no problem here with your lack of knowledge about who has been pulled from the awesome puddle. I think Mŕiri McAllan is good but beyond that?

[Nearly Sane]

A lot of the titles seem vacuous to me but no cabinet minister for Transport? Or Housing? Or Local Govt?

[ProfessorDavey]

I have no problem here with your lack of knowledge about who has been pulled from the awesome puddle.

Yet my lack of knowledge of internal Scottish politics previously led to me being accused of misogyny.

I await your apology for describing me as misogynist failing to remember Kezia Dugdale had briefly been Labour leader in Scotland along with the likes of Richard Leonard, whose tenure also passed me by. Rather hypocritical of you as seem also to have forgotten about Johann Lamont, and, while we are at it Wendy Alexander, plus acting roles for Cathy Jamieson and Jackie Baillie.

[Nearly Sane]

Yet my lack of knowledge of internal Scottish politics previously led to me being accused of misogyny.

I await your apology for describing me as misogynist failing to remember Kezia Dugdale had briefly been Labour leader in Scotland along with the likes of Richard Leonard, whose tenure also passed me by. Rather hypocritical of you as seem also to have forgotten about Johann Lamont, and, while we are at it Wendy Alexander, plus acting roles for Cathy Jamieson and Jackie Baillie.

It wasn't your lack of knowledge, it was your pontificating, wrongly.

[ProfessorDavey]

It wasn't your lack of knowledge, it was your pontificating, wrongly.

Which you cannot let go, despite me being completely open that I got it wrong and explained why that might be.

It is almost as if you have something eating away at you on your left shoulder ... or is it you right.

Regardless - being wrong provides absolutely zero evidence for misogyny.

[ProfessorDavey]

By-election likely soon in a seat the SNP held in 2019.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-65123054

Should be an interesting test of Yousaf. Will he benefit from a honeymoon period bounce and retain the seat. Or is this Labour's for the taking?

[Nearly Sane]

One of those times when I can say honestly that some of my best friends went to Hutchesons Grammar but to see it on TV 8n Reporting Scotland  being talked about and no mention of it being a fee paying school and somehow an example of how anyone can become FM...

[ProfessorDavey]

One of those times when I can say honestly that some of my best friends went to Hutchesons Grammar but to see it on TV 8n Reporting Scotland  being talked about and no mention of it being a fee paying school and somehow an example of how anyone can become FM...

I must admit that I hadn't noted Yousaf's upbringing, and interesting that both he and Sarwar (plus a bunch of other rather notable alumni) went to this school.

Building on the discussion about minority ethnic MPs - most of the those who are in the top positions (the five of seven) I mentioned went to private schools. So although part of a disadvantage minority in one respect, they are from an advantaged minority in another respect. The notable exception being Sadiq Khan.

[Nearly Sane]

Best one I saw today


https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-planning-to-honour-nicola-sturgeon-with-statue-in-scottish-parliament-4087364