Author Topic: Sturgeon to resign as FM  (Read 28275 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #750 on: May 11, 2023, 02:26:34 PM »
Not sure what Scotland did to avert Brexit though given that Blackford and Swinson let Johnson have his election.
Vote against it?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #751 on: May 11, 2023, 02:26:54 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #753 on: June 11, 2023, 02:41:50 PM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #754 on: June 11, 2023, 05:58:30 PM »
Jack McConnell, who left office in 2007, is the last former First Minister of Scotland NOT to have been subsequently arrested by the police. :o

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #755 on: June 11, 2023, 06:43:30 PM »
Alex Massie on the arrest


https://archive.vn/6WyjT

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #756 on: June 11, 2023, 06:49:34 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #757 on: June 11, 2023, 11:44:38 PM »
I'm not even going to post a picture of Anne McLaughlin's (MP) tweet about Sturgeon today because I might get done for contempt for doing that but fuck me...

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #758 on: June 12, 2023, 09:48:19 AM »
Hmmm... This is just farcical from the ex treasurer. Surely better to have gone with the dog ate the computer?


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/former-snp-treasurer-claims-late-30206188

jeremyp

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #759 on: June 12, 2023, 11:08:19 AM »
I'm not even going to post a picture of Anne McLaughlin's (MP) tweet about Sturgeon today because I might get done for contempt for doing that but fuck me...

Wait, what? It’s not contempt for a member of the public to express an opinion about Sturgeon’s guilt or innocence is it?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #760 on: June 12, 2023, 11:25:57 AM »
Wait, what? It’s not contempt for a member of the public to express an opinion about Sturgeon’s guilt or innocence is it?
She's an MP, which is why I put MP,  and former justice spokesperson for the SNP at Westminster, so not just a member of the public.  She goes a fair bit bit beyond just expressing a belief. Members of the public can be done for retweeting such stuff, and I am not taking chances.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #761 on: June 12, 2023, 11:37:44 AM »
She's an MP, which is why I put MP,  and former justice spokesperson for the SNP at Westminster, so not just a member of the public.  She goes a fair bit bit beyond just expressing a belief. Members of the public can be done for retweeting such stuff, and I am not taking chances.
We had the discussion about the scope of contempt previously. My view being that politicians tend to hide behind it when they don't want to answer difficult questions with the stock phrase 'cannot comment on a live case'. That the bar is deliberately set rather high and politicians often deliberately lower it.

So let's see what happens shall we - surely if it is the case that individuals, including prominent ones such as MPs, cannot comment on live cases surely this particular person will feel the force of the law for clearly stating that Sturgeon is innocent.

Let's see what happens.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #762 on: June 12, 2023, 11:57:07 AM »
We had the discussion about the scope of contempt previously. My view being that politicians tend to hide behind it when they don't want to answer difficult questions with the stock phrase 'cannot comment on a live case'. That the bar is deliberately set rather high and politicians often deliberately lower it.

So let's see what happens shall we - surely if it is the case that individuals, including prominent ones such as MPs, cannot comment on live cases surely this particular person will feel the force of the law for clearly stating that Sturgeon is innocent.

Let's see what happens.
(A) she doesn't just express a belief in innocence, and (B) you seem to be saying of someone isn't prosecutrd for something successfully, that means they haven't acted unlawfully?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #763 on: June 12, 2023, 12:04:52 PM »
(A) she doesn't just express a belief in innocence,
In which case surely we will see action against her. Surely this should be a good test at to where the threshold lies.

She also writes it in CAPITALS.

and (B) you seem to be saying of someone isn't prosecutrd for something successfully, that means they haven't acted unlawfully?
If someone isn't prosecuted then you have a point. But if someone is prosecuted but that prosecution fails then surely under our legal system we would consider that they hadn't been found to have acted unlawfully.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2023, 12:07:13 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #764 on: June 12, 2023, 01:23:00 PM »
In which case surely we will see action against her. Surely this should be a good test at to where the threshold lies.

She also writes it in CAPITALS.
If someone isn't prosecuted then you have a point. But if someone is prosecuted but that prosecution fails then surely under our legal system we would consider that they hadn't been found to have acted unlawfully.
Except where you wrote  'surely if it is the case that individuals, including prominent ones such as MPs, cannot comment on live cases surely this particular person will feel the force of the law for clearly stating that Sturgeon is innocent' that would include someone not being prosecuted.

And indeed "In which case surely we will see action against her. Surely this should be a good test at to where the threshold lies' you reiterate that.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2023, 02:41:24 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #765 on: June 12, 2023, 03:41:57 PM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #766 on: June 12, 2023, 04:39:35 PM »
Except where you wrote  'surely if it is the case that individuals, including prominent ones such as MPs, cannot comment on live cases surely this particular person will feel the force of the law for clearly stating that Sturgeon is innocent' that would include someone not being prosecuted.

And indeed "In which case surely we will see action against her. Surely this should be a good test at to where the threshold lies' you reiterate that.
I'm struggling to understand your point!?!

jeremyp

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #767 on: June 12, 2023, 05:02:21 PM »
She's an MP, which is why I put MP,  and former justice spokesperson for the SNP at Westminster, so not just a member of the public.  She goes a fair bit bit beyond just expressing a belief. Members of the public can be done for retweeting such stuff, and I am not taking chances.

You are not going to get done for contempt for linking to a Tweet that she made or quoting it. Shew is the one who has proclaimed Sturgeon's innocence, not you.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #768 on: June 12, 2023, 05:03:23 PM »
You are not going to get done for contempt for linking to a Tweet that she made or quoting it. Shew is the one who has proclaimed Sturgeon's innocence, not you.
And your expertise on this subject is?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #769 on: June 12, 2023, 05:06:02 PM »
I'm struggling to understand your point!?!
That both those quotes are saying that if she isn't charged and prosecuted some how shows that she is not in contempt, despite your statement 'If someone isn't prosecuted then you have a point'

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #770 on: June 12, 2023, 05:21:17 PM »
That both those quotes are saying that if she isn't charged and prosecuted some how shows that she is not in contempt, despite your statement 'If someone isn't prosecuted then you have a point'
Still struggling to understand your point. Perhaps I can explain using a different example.

If I am accused of speeding and for whatever reason I am not prosecuted (e.g. no speed camera etc) then that does not mean I have not acted unlawfully. However if I am prosecuted but I am acquitted then legally we would consider that I would not have been found to have been acting unlawfully.

But there is a broader point, which was what I was making earlier.

Given that McLaughlin has very clearly tweeted that she thinks Sturgeon is innocent (in CAPITALS no less) and she is not just an ordinary member of the public but an MP in the public eye then this sets up an interesting test case to assess the threshold for comments in the media sufficient for contempt. Also, unlike my speeding example there cannot really be an issue of evidence - we have the tweet. So there are a few possible outcomes here.

First she may be prosecuted for contempt and found guilty - this would providing an indication of where the threshold bar sits - clearly as a public figure, stating that someone is innocent would be contempt.

Secondly she may be prosecuted and not found guilty - in which case we would conclude that the bar is a heck of a lot higher than politicians who use the stock phrase 'cannot comment on a live case' effectively to avoid answering difficult questions.

Thirdly she might not be prosecuted at all - now that would tell us that either there isn't sufficient evidence to secure a conviction (which again would tell us something about where that threshold bar lies), or that persecution would not be considered to be in the public interest. But even in the latter case, with such a clear statement of innocence from a public figure, surely this again would clarify the threshold to secure a conviction or for a prosecution to be in the public interest.

I've long suspected that politicians suggest the bar is way lower than it actually is. Unless McLaughlin is actually prosecuted and convicted this would suggest my suspicions are correct.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2023, 05:23:36 PM by ProfessorDavey »

jeremyp

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #771 on: June 12, 2023, 05:26:40 PM »
And your expertise on this subject is?

I did some reading about the law of sub judice.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #772 on: June 12, 2023, 05:30:00 PM »
Still struggling to understand your point. Perhaps I can explain using a different example.

If I am accused of speeding and for whatever reason I am not prosecuted (e.g. no speed camera etc) then that does not mean I have not acted unlawfully. However if I am prosecuted but I am acquitted then legally we would consider that I would not have been found to have been acting unlawfully.

But there is a broader point, which was what I was making earlier.

Given that McLaughlin has very clearly tweeted that she thinks Sturgeon is innocent (in CAPITALS no less) and she is not just an ordinary member of the public but an MP in the public eye then this sets up an interesting test case to assess the threshold for comments in the media sufficient for contempt. So there are a few possible outcomes here.

First she may be prosecuted for contempt and found guilty - this would providing an indication of where the threshold bar sits - clearly as a public figure, stating that someone is innocent would be contempt.

Secondly she may be prosecuted and not found guilty - in which case we would conclude that the bar is a heck of a lot higher than politicians who use the stock phrase 'cannot comment on a live case' effectively to avoid answering difficult questions.

Thirdly she might not be prosecuted at all - now that would tell us that either there isn't sufficient evidence to secure a conviction (which again would tell us something about where that threshold bar lies), or that persecution would not be considered to be in the public interest. But even in the latter case, with such a clear statement of innocence from a public figure, surely this again would clarify the threshold to secure a conviction or for a prosecution to be in the public interest.

I've long suspected that politicians suggest the bar is way lower than it actually is. Unless McLaughlin is actually prosecuted and convicted this would suggest my suspicions are correct.
it's your third point that is the issue. If someone is not prosecuted, then that may just be because it is missed. Even if it isn't, and it's decided not to be in the public interest, possibly because of costs, then it does not indicate it isn't contempt, nor that at different times it would not be pursued. None of that indicates that it makes any sense fotlt a politician to test that on the basis of a random poster on the internet like you. You have spent sometime rightly pointing out to Sriram the limitations of Noble's expertise on evolution but are incapable of applying that to yourself.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #773 on: June 12, 2023, 05:30:51 PM »
I did some reading about the law of sub judice.
That's nice. Sriram's done some reading on evolution.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sturgeon to resign as FM
« Reply #774 on: June 12, 2023, 05:50:42 PM »
If someone is not prosecuted, then that may just be because it is missed.
But that doesn't seem relevant here (unlike my speeding example) as the potential contempt would be the tweet itself, and we can all see that. I guess the only thing that could have been missed is where she, herself, actually wrote it or whether he account had been hacked etc.

Even if it isn't, and it's decided not to be in the public interest, possibly because of costs, then it does not indicate it isn't contempt, nor that at different times it would not be pursued.
But it would clearly set the bar for threshold in a test case manner. Effectively if she is either not prosecuted or is prosecuted and found not guilty it would give a pretty clear steer on what a public figure can and cannot say and stay on the right side of the threshold for contempt.

None of that indicates that it makes any sense fotlt a politician to test that on the basis of a random poster on the internet like you.
Where have I ever said it would - I haven't - what I have said is that the decision whether or not to prosecute and if the former whether the verdict is guilty or not would be the test, not my opinion.

You have spent sometime rightly pointing out to Sriram the limitations of Noble's expertise on evolution but are incapable of applying that to yourself.
No I'm not as I'm not suggesting it would be me running the test case - it would be expert prosecutors who would decide whether or not to prosecute based on the likelihood of a conviction and/or public interest, and if there is a prosecution then the courts. The expertise would come from the legal profession and the legal process. This is nothing like Sriram.