Sturgeon to resign as FM

[ProfessorDavey]

No

https://www.advocates.org.uk/faculty-of-advocates

Wrong (as so often):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faculty_of_Advocates

[/i]'The Faculty of Advocates is a constituent part of the College of Justice and is based in Edinburgh.'[/i]

[Nearly Sane]

Wrong (as so often):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faculty_of_Advocates

[/i]'The Faculty of Advocates is a constituent part of the College of Justice and is based in Edinburgh.'[/i]

Which isn't a university. Please stop digging.  Your obvious ignorance, and rather desperate attempts to equate you as a university dean and Roddy Dunlop being the Dean of the Fsculty of Advocates, and thereby having some form of equivalent expertise is unhinged.

[Nearly Sane]

And again to help out Prof D


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Justice

[jeremyp]

You think the Dean of the Faculty of Advocates is just a random lawyer?

Yes.

And you reading a page which is generic on law, and isn't based on Scottish law, makes you equivalent in expertise?

How do you know contempt in Scotland is different to contempt in England?

[jeremyp]

She's been released pending further investigation
 The case is still active.

What are the charges against her?

[Nearly Sane]

What are the charges against her?

There are none - that doesn't stop it being an active case. The arrest started it. The investigation is ongoing.

[ProfessorDavey]

Which isn't a university.

Actually nor are a number of our most prestigious Universities that are, or certainly were until recently, actually Colleges rather than Universities per se - good examples being UCL and Kings.

The point being that the reason why there is a 'Faculty' and a 'Faculty' Dean is because there is a 'College' or a 'University' - the structures and the use/conferment of title is effectively identical.

Also interesting to note how many structural overlaps there are between the College of Justice and my own institution - each is presided over by President, each has a Senate as a governance structure. Each may be sub-divided into Faculties and if so those Faculties may appoint Faculty Dean(s).

It's almost as if historically these structures arose from very similar origins.

[ProfessorDavey]

There are none - that doesn't stop it being an active case. The arrest started it. The investigation is ongoing.

So when does a case cease to be active if there are no charges. Where there are charges there is a clear natural conclusion to the case being active - either acquittal or conviction. But less clear if there are no charges.

[ProfessorDavey]

So back to the matter in hand, NS. What did Roddy Dunlop KC - Dean of the Faculty of Advocates tell you when you reached out to him previously?

[Nearly Sane]

Yes.

How do you know contempt in Scotland is different to contempt in England?

Well, I could cite Mr Dunlop here but he's just some random dean of some random faculty of advocates which is randomly based in Scotland because it's based around the fact that Scottish law is different...

The whole issue that contempt applies with arrest is part of the difference. In England the police could have questioned Sturgeon without arrest. In Scotland, the thought was that in certain circumstances that could be abused because the police might actually be using it to question a suspect but in doing so the person does not have right to legal representation. So it's an attempt to make the intentions of the police more transparent, and to avoid legal claims.

Add to that, the case law in Scotland shows a stricter interpretation than England subsequent to the concurrent legislation, but related to the specific implementation of the legislation, as allowed under both the establishment of the Scottish Parliament, but already recognised as part of the separate legal systems.

[Nearly Sane]

Actually nor are a number of our most prestigious Universities that are, or certainly were until recently, actually Colleges rather than Universities per se - good examples being UCL and Kings.

The point being that the reason why there is a 'Faculty' and a 'Faculty' Dean is because there is a 'College' or a 'University' - the structures and the use/conferment of title is effectively identical.

Also interesting to note how many structural overlaps there are between the College of Justice and my own institution - each is presided over by President, each has a Senate as a governance structure. Each may be sub-divided into Faculties and if so those Faculties may appoint Faculty Dean(s).

It's almost as if historically these structures arose from very similar origins.

Amazingly, I agree. They did. Doesn't mean that your deanship is equivalent.

[Nearly Sane]

So back to the matter in hand, NS. What did Roddy Dunlop KC - Dean of the Faculty of Advocates tell you when you reached out to him previously?

He didn't reply. As I've only met him once in passing, not overly surprised.  Do you think that is helpful to your position?

[jeremyp]

There are none - that doesn't stop it being an active case. The arrest started it. The investigation is ongoing.

So how can you infer that somebody is predicting the result of a court case if you don't know what the court case is going to be or even ifs there is going to be one?

Nobody is going to be charged with contempt on the basis of that Tweet.

[Nearly Sane]

So how can you infer that somebody is predicting the result of a court case if you don't know what the court case is going to be or even ifs there is going to be one?

Nobody is going to be charged with contempt on the basis of that Tweet.

and yet that's the law.

I agree with you in the sense of it being unlikely that she, mcLaughlin, will be charged on the tweet. But it's clear that she could be. And if she was, then I could see retweeting it, or of copying it might mean the possibility of being charged too.

The law may well be an ass, doesn't mean that it can't give you a good kicking

[ProfessorDavey]

He didn't reply. As I've only met him once in passing, not overly surprised.  Do you think that is helpful to your position?

Blimey - why on earth was it so hard to get a simple answer from you, but thanks for finally confirming that he blanked you.

[Nearly Sane]

Blimey - why on earth was it so hard to get a simple answer from you, but thanks for finally confirming that he blanked you.

Why is it important to you?

[ProfessorDavey]

Amazingly, I agree. They did. Doesn't mean that your deanship is equivalent.

I means that the requirement to justify the position of Dean and for conferment of that title on an individual are similar. It doesn't mean that the roles are equivalent - in the case in point Dunlop's Deanship has a narrower focus, aspects of the law, while mine was broader in covering research across a wide range of academic disciplines. However it would appear that his role has a greater executive function - which would be more akin to the so-called Executive Dean role rather than mine which was so-calle cross-cutting.

But none of this is relevant to my original point - you claimed he was the Dean - implying there is one one Dean - that is incorrect as there are many Deans, including many faculties Deans - so he is this Dean or a Dean as there are plenty of others.

[ProfessorDavey]

Why is it important to you?

Because I wanted to know what he said to you directly as this might have been very helpful in the discussion of where the threshold lies in contempt.

Why were you so unwilling to admit that he didn't respond to you.

[jeremyp]

I means that the requirement to justify the position of Dean and for conferment of that title on an individual are similar. It doesn't mean that the roles are equivalent - in the case in point Dunlop's Deanship has a narrower focus, aspects of the law, while mine was broader in covering research across a wide range of academic disciplines. However it would appear that his role has a greater executive function - which would be more akin to the so-called Executive Dean role rather than mine which was so-calle cross-cutting.

But none of this is relevant to my original point - you claimed he was the Dean - implying there is one one Dean - that is incorrect as there are many Deans, including many faculties Deans - so he is this Dean or a Dean as there are plenty of others.

Being the a Dean is an administrative position isn't it?

[Nearly Sane]

Because I wanted to know what he said to you directly as this might have been very helpful in the discussion of where the threshold lies in contempt.

Why were you so unwilling to admit that he didn't respond to you.

I wasn't. I just didn't see the relevance to the current discussion about the fact that your deanship in an irrelevant discipline in a university is in no sense equivalent in the context of Roddy Dunlop being Dean of the Faculty of Sdvocates.

[ProfessorDavey]

Being the a Dean is an administrative position isn't it?

Yes, pretty well.

The difference is that an Executive Dean has, err, executive functions, so typically will be ultimately responsible for faculty budget and would be the ultimate line manager for members of that faculty.

The alternative is the so-called cross cutting Dean - this person will oversee a particular type of activity - in may case that was research - in a faculty and won't necessarily be a major budget holder or line manager, but is expected to achieve goals via influence and strategy rather than using the levels of executive authority.

[jeremyp]

Yes, pretty well.

The difference is that an Executive Dean has, err, executive functions, so typically will be ultimately responsible for faculty budget and would be the ultimate line manager for members of that faculty.

The alternative is the so-called cross cutting Dean - this person will oversee a particular type of activity - in may case that was research - in a faculty and won't necessarily be a major budget holder or line manager, but is expected to achieve goals via influence and strategy rather than using the levels of executive authority.

So the appeal to authority doesn't gain any weight by virtue of the fact that this man is a dean.

[Nearly Sane]

So the appeal to authority doesn't gain any weight by virtue of the fact that this man is a dean.

Surely the appeal to authority is about expertise? So when Prof D, rightly, challenges Sriram's citation of Noble in terms of evolution, that's because Noble is not an expert there.


And yet Prof D, who is confused about the difference between having been a dean in an irrelevant university discipline like Noble, and being the Dean of the Faculty of Advocates, somehow touts it as equivalent.

[ProfessorDavey]

Surely the appeal to authority is about expertise? So when Prof D, rightly, challenges Sriram's citation of Noble in terms of evolution, that's because Noble is not an expert there.

And yet Prof D, who is confused about the difference between having been a dean in an irrelevant university discipline like Noble, and being the Dean of the Faculty of Advocates, somehow touts it as equivalent.

Except I don't - so stop misrepresenting me NS.

Of course Dunlop has far great expertise than I do in legal matters. That isn't my point - my challenge was your implication that he is the Dean - suggesting that there are no other Deans. That is flat out wrong - there are many other Deans. But it is also wrong to imply that Dunlop is the Dean, in terms of legal expertise. Again there are many Deans who will have equivalent legal expertise as they will themselves be Dean of a faculty of law.

Examples might include:

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/content/news/john-armour-appointed-dean-faculty-law#:~:text=The%20Faculty%20of%20Law%20is,effect%20from%20Michaelmas%20Term%202023.
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/dan-hunter
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/news/2022/sep/professor-eloise-scotford-appointed-dean-ucl-faculty-laws

Just three examples. The point being that your appeal to exceptionalism - he's the Dean - isn't justified and you can't dismiss other Deans on the basis that their expertise is in an irrelevant university discipline as there are plenty of other Faculty Deans of Law.

[Nearly Sane]

Except I don't - so stop misrepresenting me NS.

Of course Dunlop has far great expertise than I do in legal matters. That isn't my point - my challenge was your implication that he is the Dean - suggesting that there are no other Deans. That is flat out wrong - there are many other Deans. But it is also wrong to imply that Dunlop is the Dean, in terms of legal expertise. Again there are many Deans who will have equivalent legal expertise as they will themselves be Dean of a faculty of law.

Examples might include:

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/content/news/john-armour-appointed-dean-faculty-law#:~:text=The%20Faculty%20of%20Law%20is,effect%20from%20Michaelmas%20Term%202023.
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/dan-hunter
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/laws/news/2022/sep/professor-eloise-scotford-appointed-dean-ucl-faculty-laws

Just three examples. The point being that your appeal to exceptionalism - he's the Dean - isn't justified and you can't dismiss other Deans on the basis that their expertise is in an irrelevant university discipline as there are plenty of other Faculty Deans of Law.

So now, with being a Dean in an irrelevant disciplind, are the same as Deans of Law in Scotland, which are the same as Dean of the Faculty of Advocates?

Stop barking at the moon