Cambridge University students vote for completely vegan menus

[Nearly Sane]

Ah well...


https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/feb/21/cambridge-university-students-vote-for-completely-vegan-menus

[SteveH]

That's outrageous! By all means have vegan options, but this is going much too far. I can't see it lasting - there'll be objections from omnivores.

[Maeght]

Great move.

[Nearly Sane]

Great move.

You don't see it as overly intolerant?

[Maeght]

You don't see it as overly intolerant?

No, if the reason is, as stated in the motion, in response to "climate and biodiversity crises”. Transitioning to a vegan diet is better for the environment. That's not about intolerance of other's choices.

[ProfessorDavey]

Classic case of the headline not quite equating to what is in the article.

Sure there has been a vote - but the choice of menu is determined by and negotiated by the University, not the students union. Also this only applies to university eating outlets, not those run by the various colleges.

So it is completely non binding on the people actual making the decisions and wouldn't apply to many outlets.

But it was ever thus - for decades students unions have always pushed the envelope - coming out with suggestions that at the time were thought bonkers. In many cases they were and vanished as quickly as they arose. But I suspect there are plenty of examples where student unions were actually ahead of the curve, being leaders in initiatives that are now considered standard, e.g. on equality etc.

[SqueakyVoice]

It's a thin end of the wedge on a slippery slope now. I mean what would happen if a young black man with a disadvantage background, wanted to be a,...,....a,... professor...?

I mean, come on,...
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/feb/23/jason-arday-to-become-youngest-ever-black-professor-at-cambridge
[/snark].

[ProfessorDavey]

It's a thin end of the wedge on a slippery slope now. I mean what would happen if a young black man with a disadvantage background, wanted to be a,...,....a,... professor...?

I mean, come on,...
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/feb/23/jason-arday-to-become-youngest-ever-black-professor-at-cambridge
[/snark].

Eh - don't see the connection with students voting for vegan food.

[SqueakyVoice]

Eh - don't see the connection with students voting for vegan food.

The only connection is they're both in Cambridge (University).
Beyond that, it could be sort of war of the wokes,  but not much.

[jeremyp]

That's outrageous! By all means have vegan options, but this is going much too far. I can't see it lasting - there'll be objections from omnivores.

I think the reason they are doing this is because cattle produce a lot of methane which is very bad for climate change. Also, if you put fish on the menu it has an effect on biodiversity in the oceans. The reasoning behind the vegan diet seems pretty solid, at least at first glance.

 

[SteveH]

I think the reason they are doing this is because cattle produce a lot of methane which is very bad for climate change. Also, if you put fish on the menu it has an effect on biodiversity in the oceans. The reasoning behind the vegan diet seems pretty solid, at least at first glance.

I dare say it is, but it should still be a matter of choice. try to persuade people to go veggie or vegan, but don't force them.

[Alan Burns]

No, if the reason is, as stated in the motion, in response to "climate and biodiversity crises”. Transitioning to a vegan diet is better for the environment. That's not about intolerance of other's choices.

My wife and I were on a cycling holiday in the Loire region of France two years ago.  We cycled past field after field of dried up crops.  We asked the locals about it, and they said the fields had been used for grazing cattle and sheep, but they had recently been ploughed up in order to plant crops.  The problem was that the crops needed much more water than grass.

[Maeght]

My wife and I were on a cycling holiday in the Loire region of France two years ago.  We cycled past field after field of dried up crops.  We asked the locals about it, and they said the fields had been used for grazing cattle and sheep, but they had recently been ploughed up in order to plant crops.  The problem was that the crops needed much more water than grass.

One anecdote doesn't counter that there is a great deal of evidence that a vegan diet benefits the environment. It's not a panacea and may not be as good as some people suggest but overall the consensus is that it would benefit the environment.

This website shows info on the water footprint of crops and animals

https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-footprint/water-footprint-crop-and-animal-products/

'When we look at the water requirements for protein, it has been found that the water footprint per gram of protein for milk, eggs and chicken meat is about 1.5 times larger than for pulses. For beef, the water footprint per gram of protein is 6 times larger than for pulses.'

[ProfessorDavey]

My wife and I were on a cycling holiday in the Loire region of France two years ago.  We cycled past field after field of dried up crops.  We asked the locals about it, and they said the fields had been used for grazing cattle and sheep, but they had recently been ploughed up in order to plant crops.  The problem was that the crops needed much more water than grass.

Rather missing the point AB. A field of crops will provide far more food than can be provided by a field of grass supporting livestock which are themselves the source of food for humans.

[Maeght]

Rather missing the point AB. A field of crops will provide far more food than can be provided by a field of grass supporting livestock which are themselves the source of food for humans.

Yep. Have added some data about water footprint to my earlier post. As it says

'When we look at the water requirements for protein, it has been found that the water footprint per gram of protein for milk, eggs and chicken meat is about 1.5 times larger than for pulses. For beef, the water footprint per gram of protein is 6 times larger than for pulses.'

Sorry for the repeat but thought my modification might be missed.

[Sriram]

A little off topic....but I have noticed many times that very staunch Christians (and Muslims too) are rarely supportive of vegetarianism (or veganism I assume). They seem to firmly believe that they are entitled by religious authority to eat meat.  I find this somewhat conflicting with spiritual ideals of love and non violence.

Just an aside....

[Dicky Underpants]

A little off topic....but I have noticed many times that very staunch Christians (and Muslims too) are rarely supportive of vegetarianism (or veganism I assume). They seem to firmly believe that they are entitled by religious authority to eat meat.  I find this somewhat conflicting with spiritual ideals of love and non violence.

Just an aside....

You'll have to take it up with St Peter and Jesus*, if you see them in the hereafter.

*There is some dispute over the interpretation of the text in Mark's gospel (7:19), but it seems to indicate that Jesus is saying anything edible is okay.

Vegetarianism involving the eating of cheese will certainly result in a degree of violence against male calves eventually, and a hell of a lot of them.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=06fd4a323a820a8dJmltdHM9MTY3NzQ1NjAwMCZpZ3VpZD0wYjQ2MDdiMi02YjgwLTZhNjAtMTJjMC0xNTc3NmE4YzZiMjMmaW5zaWQ9NTQ4MQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0b4607b2-6b80-6a60-12c0-15776a8c6b23&psq=Male+calves+percentage+against+female&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGhlZ3VhcmRpYW4uY29tL2Vudmlyb25tZW50LzIwMTgvbWFyLzI2L2RhaXJ5LWRpcnR5LXNlY3JldC1pdHMtc3RpbGwtY2hlYXBlci10by1raWxsLW1hbGUtY2FsdmVzLXRoYW4tdG8tcmVhci10aGVt&ntb=1

[Dicky Underpants]

Rather missing the point AB. A field of crops will provide far more food than can be provided by a field of grass supporting livestock which are themselves the source of food for humans.

The field will only do this if the subsoil supports it. This is why the Somerset Levels still contain huge areas of grassland, and haven't been dug up like my native Norfolk.

[Udayana]

You'll have to take it up with St Peter and Jesus*, if you see them in the hereafter.

*There is some dispute over the interpretation of the text in Mark's gospel (7:19), but it seems to indicate that Jesus is saying anything edible is okay.

Vegetarianism involving the eating of cheese will certainly result in a degree of violence against male calves eventually, and a hell of a lot of them.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=06fd4a323a820a8dJmltdHM9MTY3NzQ1NjAwMCZpZ3VpZD0wYjQ2MDdiMi02YjgwLTZhNjAtMTJjMC0xNTc3NmE4YzZiMjMmaW5zaWQ9NTQ4MQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0b4607b2-6b80-6a60-12c0-15776a8c6b23&psq=Male+calves+percentage+against+female&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGhlZ3VhcmRpYW4uY29tL2Vudmlyb25tZW50LzIwMTgvbWFyLzI2L2RhaXJ5LWRpcnR5LXNlY3JldC1pdHMtc3RpbGwtY2hlYXBlci10by1raWxsLW1hbGUtY2FsdmVzLXRoYW4tdG8tcmVhci10aGVt&ntb=1

This is true. And, given the nature of our economy even the reuse of leather from dead animals contributes to subsidising animal suffering and the meat industry.

All of which indicates that the vegan path is preferable from the pov. animal suffering, let alone climate change.   

Of-course at the time vegetarianism began to be adopted (India c.500 BCE, possibly earlier) there was a need and acceptable use for bullocks, but we have cars, lorries and tractors for that now.
 

[ProfessorDavey]

The field will only do this if the subsoil supports it. This is why the Somerset Levels still contain huge areas of grassland, and haven't been dug up like my native Norfolk.

Yes, of course. There are some places that won't support arable crops but will support some livestock. But I don't think that was the point - AB was implying that where fields could be used for either arable crops or livestock that livestock was better as it used less water. As pointed out this isn't really the relevant issue, which is which is able to support the production of more food and is more sustainable. Certainly when land is equally suited to crops of livestock it is usually much more efficient in terms of the amount of food produced, to use it for crops.

[Sriram]

You'll have to take it up with St Peter and Jesus*, if you see them in the hereafter.

*There is some dispute over the interpretation of the text in Mark's gospel (7:19), but it seems to indicate that Jesus is saying anything edible is okay.

Vegetarianism involving the eating of cheese will certainly result in a degree of violence against male calves eventually, and a hell of a lot of them.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=06fd4a323a820a8dJmltdHM9MTY3NzQ1NjAwMCZpZ3VpZD0wYjQ2MDdiMi02YjgwLTZhNjAtMTJjMC0xNTc3NmE4YzZiMjMmaW5zaWQ9NTQ4MQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0b4607b2-6b80-6a60-12c0-15776a8c6b23&psq=Male+calves+percentage+against+female&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGhlZ3VhcmRpYW4uY29tL2Vudmlyb25tZW50LzIwMTgvbWFyLzI2L2RhaXJ5LWRpcnR5LXNlY3JldC1pdHMtc3RpbGwtY2hlYXBlci10by1raWxsLW1hbGUtY2FsdmVzLXRoYW4tdG8tcmVhci10aGVt&ntb=1

I can understand Jesus and Peter advocating the eating of anything edible. 1st century Jerusalem probably did not have many vegetarian options in the first place.

But many of today's Christians and Muslims consider it mandatory to eat meat....which is difficult to understand. 

I don't think a large part of cheese making involves rennet from butchered calves anymore...

[Dicky Underpants]

I can understand Jesus and Peter advocating the eating of anything edible. 1st century Jerusalem probably did not have many vegetarian options in the first place.

But many of today's Christians and Muslims consider it mandatory to eat meat....which is difficult to understand. 

I don't think a large part of cheese making involves rennet from butchered calves anymore...

It's not about rennet - or at least that's a tiny part of it. It's about the simple fact that cows have to be in calf to produce milk, and as with many mammals, the calves will be about 50% female and 50% male. The females can be used to produce more milk. But the males? Unless they are killed for meat, or simply culled to make space, all the grasslands of the earth will be rapidly overpopulated with superfluous male cattle. What would you propose to do with them?
There are experiments with mixing sperm to counteract this problem, but the only way forward, if a vegetarian diet is the default option, is in genetic modification, and that's a long way off.
So, it would have to be absolute veganism all the way. Good luck with persuading the whole world about that.

[Harrowby Hall]

In the wild, perhaps the main role for male animals is to provide prey for carnivores. I recall reading somewhere that the majority of male mammals die virgins.

Another role for animals (in general) is to produce faeces which can add richness to soil - and make it more productive.

[SteveH]

Fwiw, I'm an omnivore, but I don't eat all that much meat nowadays, and often have vegetarian or vegan meals. I suppose that makes me a flexitarian.

[Dicky Underpants]

Fwiw, I'm an omnivore, but I don't eat all that much meat nowadays, and often have vegetarian or vegan meals. I suppose that makes me a flexitarian.

It's more honest, if you care about animal welfare, than vegetarianism (unless you simply don't like eating meat).
The only honest options for humans are an omnivorous diet, or total veganism.