Author Topic: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories  (Read 702 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64784053

I know these kind of communal attacks happen all over the world, including by some Arabs, so it is not particularly surprising that Jewish Israeli citizens are guilty of this kind of mindless, racist mob violence. There was a recent documentary about Modi's alleged complicity in the Gujarat riots, which explains a lot about the direction his nationalist right-wing government has taken in India, and the resulting attacks with impunity carried out by Indian Hindu citizens on Muslims. Therefore it won't be a surprise when we hear about Israeli authority complicity in the attacks carried out by Israeli settlers - little seems to happen to deter these racist attacks and the expansion of the Israeli settlements in violation of international law emboldens the Jewish settlers to act outside the law. 

Israeli settlers shot and seriously wounded two Palestinians in the West Bank on Friday, the day after Israel’s new far-Right government approved plans for 7,000 new settlement homes in the occupied territory. Armed settlers from a nearby outpost descended on the village of Qusra near Nablus and opened fire in an unprovoked shooting, according to Ghassan Douglas, the Palestinian official who monitors Israeli settlements in the Nablus region.

In Huwara, in the Palestinian West Bank territories illegally occupied by Israel, the Israeli military and police – now overseen by far-right national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, who has a conviction for inciting racism, – have been accused of failing to intervene.

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/israeli-coalition-accused-of-encouraging-revenge-attacks-on-palestinians-after-settlers-rampage-in-west-bank-2178911

The United Nations recorded over 848 settler attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank last year, up from 538 in 2021. That includes property damage as well as physical assaults. The U.N.’s humanitarian office said it was the highest number it had recorded since 2006. So far this year, there have been 72 such attacks, it added.

The question is - what is Biden and the US government going to do about it? Continue funding the Israeli government thereby facilitating stealing Palestinian land and their attacks on ordinary Palestinians ...if it gets the Democrats the political support they need ithat's precisely what they will do. The US administrations are not known for having any moral qualms about supporting murdering regimes. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/27/biden-administration-under-pressure-as-israel-palestine-violence-escalates
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2023, 10:42:57 AM »
...

The question is - what is Biden and the US government going to do about it? Continue funding the Israeli government thereby facilitating stealing Palestinian land and their attacks on ordinary Palestinians ...if it gets the Democrats the political support they need ithat's precisely what they will do. The US administrations are not known for having any moral qualms about supporting murdering regimes. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/27/biden-administration-under-pressure-as-israel-palestine-violence-escalates

Yup, that's about it.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7716
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2023, 11:28:43 AM »
You got it.
Politics and power.
Do what it takes to stay in power.

It was ever thus, sadly.
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64242
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2023, 11:54:59 AM »
In the morass of Middle East politics, US interests dictate support for Israel.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2023, 11:56:20 AM »
Yes I wasn't expecting anything different from Biden's administration, given the history of US involvement in this fight over land and power in the Middle East between some Jews and Arabs, that has resulted in thousands of civilian deaths, with most of the deaths being Arabs. Given some crazy Europeans tried to exterminate the Jews pretty recently and most of Europe didn't intervene to protect Jews so much as to protect their own freedoms, I can't see the Zionists being willing to give up any land they are occupying or trusting Gentiles to protect them.

Bin Laden's 9/11 attempt to change the power dynamics by bringing some of the battle home to US soil, so the US experienced some consequences to US governments funding foreign wars didn't have the impact he was hoping for. Seems both US foreign policy and Bin Laden regard 3000 civilian deaths in the Twin Towers as a price worth paying in the game of power and politics in the Middle East.     
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2023, 05:46:40 PM »

Well ... as in all situations of this kind, killing any number of people, in any way, by either side will never solve the underlying problems and conflicts. The lost lives only serve to inflame the hatred and racism.

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11070
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2023, 09:50:20 AM »
Well ... as in all situations of this kind, killing any number of people, in any way, by either side will never solve the underlying problems and conflicts. The lost lives only serve to inflame the hatred and racism.
Yes - totally agree. You get extremists on both sides who think killing people or using armies to take over land is the way to solve political issues. But it rarely seems to work. In the short-term they might temporarily subdue their target, but inevitably some of the people on the receiving end of this kind of military and economic subjugation will take extreme measures to fight back against the extremism they experience. It doesn't seem possible to eradicate that part of human nature.

The US has been both aggressor in foreign disputes and also had to defend itself against aggressors (e.g. Japan in WW2). When it has tried to use its military and economic resources as an aggressor to prop up foreign regimes and even brought in boots on the ground it has not ended well for them - hence Vietnam, 9/11, Afghanistan. In the case of Iraq, the US response led to the creation of ISIS.

The current Israeli government's extremist policy of stealing Palestinian land by expanding settlements and also allowing settlers to attack Palestinians will just lead to more extremist policy in response from Palestinian elements - more bombs and attacks inside Israel. And elements within the Palestinian population have no incentive to stop - factually they or their parents/ grandparents had their land stolen from them and were ethnically cleansed from villages when the State of Israel was created. Under International Law they are told they have a Right of Return to their land - and if laws don't apply or aren't enforced people have an incentive to take the law into their own hands.   

I think some posters on here seem to think religion is the cause of extremism because some of the people in the fight brainwash recruits, keep up their morale or sustain group cohesion to be a more effective fighting force by invoking religious imagery, text and beliefs. The savagery of the many wars where religion was not invoked shows that many alternative abstract ideas can be used just as effectively as religious ideas to brainwash - e.g. nation state, patriotic duty, political allegiance, race, an existential threat to a culture and way of life etc - they can all generate the necessary bigotry and fervour to fight and commit acts of brutality and extremism. Eliminate religion and charismatic humans with nature/nurture  tendencies towards extremist thought will just transfer their savagery and intolerance to brainwash people susceptible to their influence with another abstract idea and the killing and extremism will continue.

It's pretty clear the fight between the Arabs and the Jews regarding Israel and Palestine and specifically the Illegally Occupied Territories is about land and self-determination. The Jews and the Muslims could co-exist if they weren't both fighting over the same land due to understandable aspirations to nationhood - land promised to both of them by the British for their own political interests in the early 20th century.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64242
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2023, 10:40:18 AM »
A thoughtful piece by Margaret Hodge:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/03/benjamin-netanyahu-israel-jewish-diaspora-palestinians
Given she is a hugely divisive character in Labour will be interesting what the reaction is and whether Starmer starts taking the same line.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2023, 11:34:49 AM »
Not sure if Starmer will change his view in light of his past comments - he seemed unable to grasp the impact on the mentality of Palestinians civilians enduring the daily obstructions to travel, education, medical treatment, jobs and other indignities forced on them from the Israeli army checkpoints and Israeli policies. Without any prospect of a future with dignity and equality, some / many people turn to violence.

Yet Starmer said he did not accept the findings of an Amnesty International report that Israel practises the crime of apartheid. Its report found there was “institutionalised and prolonged racist oppression of millions of people”. So Starmer is at odds with the motion passed at the last Labour conference by a majority of his own party. Starmer is known to conflate anti-Zionism and antisemitism in an attempt to shut down criticism of Israel.

""He also condemned the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement on the absurd grounds that it singles out Israel for accountability—ignoring that it is a Palestinian-led movement. Who should Palestinians hold accountable if not their direct oppressor? Does Starmer condemn Ukrainians for asking for sanctions against Russia and not Saudi Arabia?"

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2022/04/keir-starmer-labour-party-israel-apartheid-palestine-amnesty-report-jewish-chronicle

« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 11:45:06 AM by Violent Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64242
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2023, 11:53:07 AM »
And it's only 5 days since Starmer welcomed Berger back into the party.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64774642

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2023, 12:41:51 PM »
Unfortunately Labour does not seem to have a found a middle ground between racism against Palestinians and antisemitism against Jewish MPs.

I don't think adoption of the IHRA/ EUMC definition of antisemitism has been helpful, especially in the face of the increasing extremism shown by Israel. I disagree with the idea that it is anti-Semitic to state that it was an act of racism to create the Jewish state of Israel by taking Arab land by force against the will of the Arabs or their political leaders. I also don't think it is ant-Semitic to criticise discriminatory and brutal Israeli policies in trying to keep their Jewish state. I don't think there is anything wrong with Jewish people wanting their own state, it only becomes wrong depending on the methods they use to go about getting one and keeping it.

If it is reasonable for people to have open debate and hold opposing views and therefore be able to openly criticise someone who says that Britain should retain or give up control over N. Ireland or that Britain should remain white or that India should remain brown, or Saudi Arabia should remain Muslim or that white South Africans should be given their own state within South Africa and that state should be majority white, it should not be anti-Semitic to criticise people who say Israel should be a Jewish state.
 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 12:59:53 PM by Violent Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8981
Re: Rampage of Israeli illegal settlers in Occupied Territories
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2023, 12:59:35 PM »
I thought the Parliamentary Home Affairs Select Committee had some interesting thoughts when they proposed this amendment to the IHRA definition of antisemitism:

A proposed amended definition
22.The Macpherson definition that, for recording purposes, a racist incident is one “perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person” is a good working definition, which provides a strong basis for investigation. As such, the perceptions of Jewish people—both collectively and individually, as an alleged victim—should be the starting point of any investigation into antisemitism. However, for an incident to be found to be antisemitic, or for a perpetrator to be prosecuted for a criminal offence that was motivated or aggravated by antisemitism, requires more than just the victim’s perception that it was antisemitic. It also requires evidence, and it requires that someone other than the victim makes an objective interpretation of that evidence. The difficulty of making such a determination in the face of conflicting interpretations underlines the importance of establishing an agreed definition of antisemitism.

23.It is clear that where criticism of the Israeli Government is concerned, context is vital. Israel is an ally of the UK Government and is generally regarded as a liberal democracy, in which the actions of the Government are openly debated and critiqued by its citizens. Campaigners for Palestinian rights have informed us that they would expect similar standards of conduct from the Israeli Government as they would demand from the UK Government. It is important that non-Israelis with knowledge and understanding of the region should not be excluded from criticising the Israeli Government, in common with the many citizens of Israel who are amongst its strongest critics, including human rights organisations in that country.

24.We broadly accept the IHRA definition, but propose two additional clarifications to ensure that freedom of speech is maintained in the context of discourse about Israel and Palestine, without allowing antisemitism to permeate any debate. The definition should include the following statements:

It is not antisemitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.

It is not antisemitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government’s policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
25.We recommend that the IHRA definition, with our additional caveats, should be formally adopted by the UK Government, law enforcement agencies and all political parties, to assist them in determining whether or not an incident or discourse can be regarded as antisemitic.


https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/136/13605.htm

However, restricting criticism of Zionism or Zionists to Israeli Government policies in keeping hold of occupied land and expanding its territories makes little sense. It is not just the Israeli government that is Zionist. The Government is voted for by Israeli citizens and is funded by foreign government aid (e.g. USA) so it seems reasonable to have the freedom of speech to criticise the Zionist endeavours of all those who support military funding of Israel and increased settlement building.

Some views from some prominent Jewish writers on the problems with the IHRA definition of antisemitism:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/27/antisemitism-ihra-definition-jewish-writers
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi