HS12THOFNEVER

[Nearly Sane]

As I have noted before something that I think was a 19th solution to a 21st century problem may become a solution to a 22nd century problem at this rate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64901985

[Walt Zingmatilder]

As I have noted before something that I think was a 19th solution to a 21st century problem may become a solution to a 22nd century problem at this rate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64901985

Reopening of the Great Central with some of the curves taken out and some diversions would have been a L000,000,000t cheaper. Boris vanity project.

[Nearly Sane]

Reopening of the Great Central with some of the curves taken out and some diversions would have been a L000,000,000t cheaper. Boris vanity project.

Not sure how a project approved under David Cameron as PM in a coalition govt and supported by Labour is a 'Boris vanity project'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not sure how a project approved under David Cameron as PM in a coalition govt and supported by Labour is a 'Boris vanity project'.

True but considering a major delay/full stop is probably going to be drawn on this one might ponder why Johnson went ahead with it in 2020.

[Nearly Sane]

True but considering a major delay/full stop is probably going to be drawn on this one might ponder why Johnson went ahead with it in 2020.

When again it was supported and still is by Labour and the Lib Dems.

[Aruntraveller]

Just seen this description by a Guardian reader in a comments page:

If you look at the map of the UK, HS2 is the equivalent of sewing a £120B zip fly into a pair of worn out dungarees.

and I can't stop laughing.

[ProfessorDavey]

As I have noted before something that I think was a 19th solution to a 21st century problem may become a solution to a 22nd century problem at this rate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64901985

Just crazy - delaying will only increase construction costs. But a delay will also push back the economic benefits that will arise from HS2 and therefore hit tax income and economic growth.

My fear is that delay is just the prelude to scrapping the project.

I despair at our inability to plan and deliver major infrastructure projects. Sure you need to make initial decisions carefully, but once you've decided to do just get on with it. Endless delays just caused further cost over-run.

[ProfessorDavey]

Boris vanity project.

This isn't a Boris vanity project.

The original proposal came from Labour in 2009 and the announcement that it would go ahead was in 2012 under the coalition.

During that period Boris was in London as mayor devising plenty of genuine Boris vanity projects, the most notable being:

The garden bridge
The new Routemaster bus
The cable car over the thames.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

When again it was supported and still is by Labour and the Lib Dems.

Yes alas another case of Labour and Lib dems conceding to a Boris vanity project just like they conceded to his election in 2019.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This isn't a Boris vanity project.

The original proposal came from Labour in 2009 and the announcement that it would go ahead was in 2012 under the coalition.

A proposal for a project is not the go ahead and a go ahead is not spades in the ground. I think you'll find that they went in because it made Johnson look good in the short term and got out of hand from there. It doesn't look good though when Spain can build several hundred KMS of high speed line and Britain can't. I wonder if Boris's brexit has something to do with it.

During that period Boris was in London as mayor devising plenty of genuine Boris vanity projects, the most notable being:

The garden bridge
The new Routemaster bus
The cable car over the thames.

Agreed.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes alas another case of Labour and Lib dems conceding to a Boris vanity project just like they conceded to his election in 2019.

So the two parties supporting a project they had always supported was somehow 'conceding' something.

[ProfessorDavey]

A proposal for a project is not the go ahead and a go ahead is not spades in the ground. I think you'll find that they went in because it made Johnson look good in the short term and got out of hand from there. It doesn't look good though when Spain can build several hundred KMS of high speed line and Britain can't. I wonder if Boris's brexit has something to do with it.

Sure - but all the earliest steps are essential for a project to be realised and completed. Actually HS2 is a project with cross-party support, but you are correct that we, in the UK, seem to take far too long to actually deliver projects of this type. I think there are many reasons for this and I suspect that the whole grid lock over brexit where nothing else seemed to get done was a factor.

But this UK issue has been going on for decades - remember the years when the channel tunnel had opening and trains whizzed through France on high speed lines and then trundled through Kent on commuter lines and then crawled through south London to Waterloo behind suburban commuter trains.

[SqueakyVoice]

True but considering a major delay/full stop is probably going to be drawn on this one might ponder why Johnson went ahead with it in 2020.

Boorish's vanity project began after a (landside) election when he promised to 'level up' for his new 'blue wall'.
HS2 would have been the only item tangible 'promise', everything else is just just waffle and tat, (c) M Gove.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So the two parties supporting a project they had always supported was somehow 'conceding' something.

But like not supporting a very Boris Brexit until they put themselves in a position where they had to and not only a Boris Brexit but a Boris HS2.

But you are right.
Reviving the GCR with modifications would have been the better option. Since the advent of Tram trains

[Nearly Sane]

But like not supporting a very Boris Brexit until they put themselves in a position where they had to and not only a Boris Brexit but a Boris HS2.

But you are right.
Reviving the GCR with modifications would have been the better option. Since the advent of Tram trains

What's a 'Boris HS2'? As opposed to the Lib Dem HS2 and the Labour HS2?

[Udayana]

What's a 'Boris HS2'? As opposed to the Lib Dem HS2 and the Labour HS2?

An Adonis vanity project with all the selling points lopped off?

[Nearly Sane]

An Adonis vanity project with all the selling points lopped off?

and still supported by the Lib Dems and Labour, as it was before.

[Udayana]

and still supported by the Lib Dems and Labour, as it was before.

Fallen for the sunk cost fallacy?

[Nearly Sane]

Fallen for the sunk cost fallacy?

They may have but it means that calling it a 'Boris vanity project' is a nonsense.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What's a 'Boris HS2'? As opposed to the Lib Dem HS2 and the Labour HS2?

There are actually at least 2 HS2's under the Boris era the one at the time of material work starting on it, The revised route before he got kicked out revealing that commitment to it was just bollocks that may be the true Johnson HS2.......all promise and a botched non delivery.

[Nearly Sane]

There are actually at least 2 HS2's under the Boris era the one at the time of material work starting on it, The revised route before he got kicked out revealing that commitment to it was just bollocks that may be the true Johnson HS2.......all promise and a botched non delivery.

So you're saying there was a bigger HS2 which wasn't a vanity project, and that was reduced, and still supported by the Lib Dems and Labour, and it became a vanity project?

One of those rare times when a smaller Johnson was a vanity claim.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So you're saying there was a bigger HS2 which wasn't a vanity project, and that was reduced, and still supported by the Lib Dems and Labour, and it became a vanity project?

One of those rare times when a smaller Johnson was a vanity claim.

I thought I made it clear that you had comprehensively held up and exposed my claim that HS2 was a Boris Vanity Project to be complete shit. My apologies that I hadn't.

[Nearly Sane]

I thought I made it clear that you had comprehensively held up and exposed my claim that HS2 was a Boris Vanity Project to be complete shit. My apologies that I hadn't.

No problem, I was just obliged to make a smaller Johnson joke.

[jeremyp]

This isn't a Boris vanity project.

The original proposal came from Labour in 2009 and the announcement that it would go ahead was in 2012 under the coalition.

During that period Boris was in London as mayor devising plenty of genuine Boris vanity projects, the most notable being:

The garden bridge
The new Routemaster bus
The cable car over the thames.

The cable car over the Thames is great. The views are just as spectacular as the London Eye and it's much cheaper.

[ProfessorDavey]

Astonishing if true:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/passengers-elizabeth-line-soar-41-per-cent-tfl-overcrowding-b1067730.html

The Elizabeth line is fantastic - a real game changer for me. And this shows the value of major infrastructure projects which will be delivering for decades to come once the delays have long been forgotten and the cost over-runs have vanished into the financial 'noise'.

That's not to say that we don't need proper processes and control but continually kicking stuff into the long grass not only delays the project (obviously) but also makes the project more expensive and reduces the economic benefits.