Author Topic: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?  (Read 643 times)

Nearly Sane

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Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« on: March 17, 2023, 10:23:22 AM »
There's only one way to settle this...

Good introductory article though


https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/622471871/schopenhauer-vs-hegel-progress-or-pessimism
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 10:28:39 AM by Nearly Sane »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2023, 03:44:43 PM »
There's only one way to settle this...

Good introductory article though


https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/622471871/schopenhauer-vs-hegel-progress-or-pessimism

Did Hegel bother to return the compliment? -

Quote
May Hegel's philosophy of absolute nonsense - three-fourths cash and one-fourth crazy fancies - continue to pass for unfathomable wisdom without anyone suggesting as an appropriate motto for his writings Shakespeare's words: "Such stuff as madmen tongue and brain not," or, as an emblematical vignette, the cuttle-fish with its ink-bag, creating a cloud of darkness around it to prevent people from seeing what it is, with the device: mea caligine tutus. - May each day bring us, as hitherto, new systems adapted for University purposes, entirely made up of words and phrases and in a learned jargon besides, which allows people to talk whole days without saying anything; and may these delights never be disturbed by the Arabian proverb: "I hear the clappering of the mill, but I see no flour." - For all this is in accordance with the age and must have its course.

From Schopenhauer's "On the Will in Nature".
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 04:15:35 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2023, 04:07:49 PM »
There's only one way to settle this...

Good introductory article though


https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/622471871/schopenhauer-vs-hegel-progress-or-pessimism

One can certainly understand why Schopenhauer hated Hegel. It wasn't just a case of Hegel's preferment over Schopenhauer in university posts; it seems that Hegel's idea of the culmination of the evolution of the Spirit in the Prussian state chimed very nicely with rising tides of Prussian nationalism (and incidentally might have had some contribution to the rise of Nazism eventually). Hegel even got honoured by Frederick Wilhelm III.
Here's a question though: if you want a philosophy that helps a society to thrive, do you promote ideas which seem basically optimistic, and give the individual the sense that he is participating in a great spiritual adventure, or do you tell him/her that they should fill their heads with stuff which implies that all life is a meaningless illusion, that the individual counts for nothing, and that we'd all be better off if we'd never been born?
You see arguments such as these being played out in various ways on this very forum. My sympathies are with bluehillside and Stranger, Outrider et al., and these are expressing in more modern scientific and philosophical ways ideas which were perhaps adumbrated in Schopenhauer's philosophy. But if everybody got imbued with them (and perhaps only understanding a tiny part of their meaning), I fancy the human race might commit mass suicide!

(Incidentally, the latter suggestion was seriously promulgated by Schopenhauer's disciple Eduard von Hartmann.)
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Nearly Sane

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2023, 04:10:43 PM »
Did Hegel bother to return the compliment? -

From Schopenhauer's "On the Will in Nature".
See Johnny Rotten on Pink Floyd. He owned a TShirt that he used. They didn't at the time know who he was.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2023, 04:14:53 PM »
One can certainly understand why Schopenhauer hated Hegel. It wasn't just a case of Hegel's preferment over Schopenhauer in university posts; it seems that Hegel's idea of the culmination of the evolution of the Spirit in the Prussian state chimed very nicely with rising tides of Prussian nationalism (and incidentally might have had some contribution to the rise of Nazism eventually). Hegel even got honoured by Frederick Wilhelm III.
Here's a question though: if you want a philosophy that helps a society to thrive, do you promote ideas which seem basically optimistic, and give the individual the sense that he is participating in a great spiritual adventure, or do you tell him/her that they should fill their heads with stuff which implies that all life is a meaningless illusion, that the individual counts for nothing, and that we'd all be better off if we'd never been born?
You see arguments such as these being played out in various ways on this very forum. My sympathies are with bluehillside and Stranger, Outrider et al., and these are expressing in more modern scientific and philosophical ways ideas which were perhaps adumbrated in Schopenhauer's philosophy. But if everybody got imbued with them (and perhaps only understanding a tiny part of their meaning), I fancy the human race might commit mass suicide!

(Incidentally, the latter suggestion was seriously promulgated by Schopenhauer's disciple Eduard von Hartmann.)
I would suggest that of the posters you name most follow a Hegelian approach in the sense that progress is made to a 'better place', and that science is a 'guiding light' in that process. Doesn't seem like Schopenhauer to me.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2023, 04:17:08 PM »
I would suggest that of the posters you name most follow a Hegelian approach in the sense that progress is made to a 'better place', and that science is a 'guiding light' in that process. Doesn't seem like Schopenhauer to me.

True in that sense, but there seems to me to be an inherent contradiction in this approach.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Nearly Sane

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2023, 04:41:05 PM »
True in that sense, but there seems to me to be an inherent contradiction in this approach.
As covered before, I think that the reaction to a previous philosopher is often a bit simplified. I think Schpoenhauer went all in as the anti Hegel as an early marketing ploy.

I think seeing Hegel as simply about improvement rather than an idea of ebb and flow is wrong. We may be improving but not every reaction is universally good. And I think Schpenhauer caricatured Hegel a lot. That said my sympathies are with Schopenhauer.

Sriram

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2023, 05:11:01 AM »
There's only one way to settle this...

Good introductory article though


https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/622471871/schopenhauer-vs-hegel-progress-or-pessimism

Well written article. Simple and clear. 

Hegel is more sociological. Schopenheuer is more metaphysical and tries to acknowledge realities beyond the normal human experience.  Though why this is dubbed as pessimism I am not clear.

It is obvious the we are not in control of the world or even our own lives. Recognizing this situation is the way forward to humans both as individuals and as a society.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2023, 07:56:36 AM »
Well written article. Simple and clear. 

Hegel is more sociological. Schopenheuer is more metaphysical and tries to acknowledge realities beyond the normal human experience.  Though why this is dubbed as pessimism I am not clear.

It is obvious the we are not in control of the world or even our own lives. Recognizing this situation is the way forward to humans both as individuals and as a society.

To an extent you are answering your own question. Hegel would be seen as arguing that we are in control, that progress is made. Now I'll caveat that, the rest of my post, and the original article with the warning that there's a lot of simplification going on. That's one reason why the article is clear.

 It works by positing the idea of Hegel and Schopenhauer being directly in conflict and as Dicky U's quote covers it's east to illustrate Schopenhauer's animus against Hegel. As I've mentioned in reply to Dicky on another thread though I think viewing the philosophy of one philosopher as a dirdct answer against another isn't correct even if the philsopher tyemself says it is but it's a valid perspective to take one view of the work.


As to Schoenhauer's pessimism, it's both in contrasr to Hegel, and based on the idea that humans are destined to strive for the unachievable. And anyone who writes 'Life is a constant process of dying' is likely to he seen as a pessimist. Add to that a life lived pretty much like that and the tag fits for most people.

In the related conversation on the Kant thread, I suggested that there's a book to be written that looks at invidual philosopher's apparent 'neurodivergence' based on their lifes and relate that to their philosophy. I suspect you could write a book on Schopenhauer alone 


Sriram

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2023, 04:25:10 AM »

Schopenheuer's philosophy is very similar and probably influenced by Hindu philosophy. We view the ego self as obsessively seeking control even though the real control lies with the underlying Consciousness (that we are unconscious of). 

This idea is never seen as pessimistic or as  negative.....rather it is seen as a very positive idea which states that our real identity is eternal, all knowing and blissful...while the ego self is illusionary and transient. 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Schopenhauer vs Hegel: progress or pessimism?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2023, 08:29:38 AM »
Schopenheuer's philosophy is very similar and probably influenced by Hindu philosophy. We view the ego self as obsessively seeking control even though the real control lies with the underlying Consciousness (that we are unconscious of). 

This idea is never seen as pessimistic or as  negative.....rather it is seen as a very positive idea which states that our real identity is eternal, all knowing and blissful...while the ego self is illusionary and transient.
The thing is that that cheery last bit isn't in Schopenhauer.