Interesting graph about ethnic minority MPs

[Nearly Sane]

This appeared on my timeline.

[ProfessorDavey]

This appeared on my timeline.

Interesting.

What it certainly shows is that Labour have diversified their MPs more, and more rapidly than any other party. So interesting that the tories and SNP both have minority ethnic leaders, while Labour hasn't yet.

I suspect you'd get a similar pattern if you looked at women MPs too.

[ProfessorDavey]

I suspect you'd get a similar pattern if you looked at women MPs too.

As I thought.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/870991/women-mps-in-uk-parliament-by-political-party/

[Nearly Sane]

As I thought.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/870991/women-mps-in-uk-parliament-by-political-party/

Thatcher's achievement looks extraordinary with those numbers.

[ProfessorDavey]

Interesting too that we have taken until 2019 for a major party to come close to being demographically representative, in the broadest sense of sex and ethnicity.

In 2019 104 of Labour's 202 seats were won by women, so 51.4%, compared to census 51.0%

And 41 of 202 MPs from minority ethnic groups represents 20.2% of Labour MPs, just ahead of the census 18.3%.

Yet no female or minority leader at national level (except acting).

[ProfessorDavey]

Thatcher's achievement looks extraordinary with those numbers.

To an extent. Although I think the Tories have been comfortable to go for a leader who is diverse in one respect as long as they tick the usual boxes in others. So although Thatcher was a women, she perhaps exhibited more alpha male tendencies than most of the men around her.

And we also have Sunak - OK to go for a minority ethnic leader ... provided his upbringing is exceptionally privileged (top public school, Oxbridge - well actually not Oxbridge, but Oxford) and stinking rich from working in the City.

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting too that we have taken until 2019 for a major party to come close to being demographically representative, in the broadest sense of sex and ethnicity.

In 2019 104 of Labour's 202 seats were won by women, so 51.4%, compared to census 51.0%

And 41 of 202 MPs from minority ethnic groups represents 20.2% of Labour MPs, just ahead of the census 18.3%.

Yet no female or minority leader at national level (except acting).

'National' level is surely problematic here?

[Nearly Sane]

To an extent. Although I think the Tories have been comfortable to go for a leader who is diverse in one respect as long as they tick the usual boxes in others. So although Thatcher was a women, she perhaps exhibited more alpha male tendencies than most of the men around her.

And we also have Sunak - OK to go for a minority ethnic leader ... provided his upbringing is exceptionally privileged (top public school, Oxbridge - well actually not Oxbridge, but Oxford) and stinking rich from working in the City.

I don't see any of that as reducing Thatcher's achievement.

[ProfessorDavey]

'National' level is surely problematic here?

As in UK - go sack me!

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't see any of that as reducing Thatcher's achievement.

I think it means that, certainly in the 1970s/80s, in order to become leader of the tories as a women you need to operate as a typical alpha male would be expected to act. In fact she needed to over-reach herself in those terms as her approach was far more alpha male then her actual male predecessors, who were largely more establishment gentleman types who probably worked through others to keep the oiks in order.

[Nearly Sane]

As in UK - go sack me!

I know what you meant, I just think It's simplistic in the context of the UK.

[Nearly Sane]

I think it means that, certainly in the 1970s/80s, in order to become leader of the tories as a women you need to operate as a typical alpha male would be expected to act. In fact she needed to over-reach herself in those terms as her approach was far more alpha male then her actual male predecessors, who were largely more establishment gentleman types who probably worked through others to keep the oiks in order.

Would you say the same about Barbara Castle or Shirley Williams? The alpha male line just seems deeply sexist to me.

[ProfessorDavey]

I know what you meant, I just think It's simplistic in the context of the UK.

Not really for a 'national' party who cover the whole of the UK (well actually the whole of Britain), as opposed to a party such as SNP, Plaid, those guys in Cornwall, who restrict themselves to a relatively small part of the UK.

UK (or GB-wide) Labour have never had a minority ethnic leader - at a level below, major devolved government level, they have two - Sadiq Khan in London and Anas Sarwar in Scotland.

[ProfessorDavey]

Would you say the same about Barbara Castle or Shirley Williams? The alpha male line just seems deeply sexist to me.

Actually yes - or certainly so for Barbara Castle - in the 60-80s to become successful as a woman in politics you needed to operate by the rules of the day and those rules was dictated by men.

[Nearly Sane]

Actually yes - or certainly so for Barbara Castle - in the 60-80s to become successful as a woman in politics you needed to operate by the rules of the day and those rules was dictated by men.

I think you are being as sexist as the men then.

[Nearly Sane]

Not really for a 'national' party who cover the whole of the UK (well actually the whole of Britain), as opposed to a party such as SNP, Plaid, those guys in Cornwall, who restrict themselves to a relatively small part of the UK.

UK (or GB-wide) Labour have never had a minority ethnic leader - at a level below, major devolved government level, they have two - Sadiq Khan in London and Anas Sarwar in Scotland.

Britain is an odd term to use here. You seem to think that the UK is the nation but also NI isn't part of it.

As I am sure you know, the concept of a 'nation' is already confused by the concept of the UK. Your facile disingenuosness on that is merely tedious.

Interesting that you missed the women leaders of Labour in Scotland - probably your inherent misogyny

[ProfessorDavey]

I think you are being as sexist as the men then.

I don't agree - I'm just pointing out how society operated back them (and thankfully to a lesser extent still does now) and therefore how those who were not the traditional 'fit' for that society (e.g. due to sex or ethnicity) needed to operate in order to be successful. Don't forget that society so dismissed women back then (when Castle and Thatcher were forging their careers) that women weer routinely paid less than men for the same job and even (astonishingly now) weren't able to get a mortgage without a male guarantor. So not to be dismissed meant playing the by the rule of the male game (as there wasn't a female game) and playing it better than the men.

[ProfessorDavey]

Britain is an odd term to use here. You seem to think that the UK is the nation but also NI isn't part of it.

Because none of the so-called 'national' parties - e.g. Labour, Conservatives, LibDems etc operate in Northern Ireland. So they are, in effect, GB parties rather than UK parties. But as that means they support about 95% of the population, compared to the SNP that supports about 9% of the population, Paid about 4% and the DUP fewer still.

It is a useful (if in reality slightly imprecise) way of describing our political parties.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't agree - I'm just pointing out how society operated back them (and thankfully to a lesser extent still does now) and therefore how those who were not the traditional 'fit' for that society (e.g. due to sex or ethnicity) needed to operate in order to be successful. Don't forget that society so dismissed women back then (when Castle and Thatcher were forging their careers) that women weer routinely paid less than men for the same job and even (astonishingly now) weren't able to get a mortgage without a male guarantor. So not to be dismissed meant playing the by the rule of the male game (as there wasn't a female game) and playing it better than the men.

Interesting that you chose to ignore Williams? Wasn't she acting manly enough for how you think women needed to behave in politics back then?

[Nearly Sane]

Because none of the so-called 'national' parties - e.g. Labour, Conservatives, LibDems etc operate in Northern Ireland. So they are, in effect, GB parties rather than UK parties. But as that means they support about 95% of the population, compared to the SNP that supports about 9% of the population, Paid about 4% and the DUP fewer still.

It is a useful (if in reality slightly imprecise) way of describing our political parties.

So it's your own made up idea of 'national'.

[ProfessorDavey]

Interesting that you missed the women leaders of Labour in Scotland - probably your inherent misogyny

I also never mentioned the gay leaders in Scotland - does that mean I'm homophobic, Chip.

But you are of course correct - Labour have not had a female national leader (except acting leaders), not female leaders in any of the major devolved assemblies, e.g. London, Scotland or Wales.

[Nearly Sane]

I also never mentioned the gay leaders in Scotland - does that mean I'm homophobic, Chip.

But you are of course correct - Labour have not had a female national leader (except acting leaders), not female leaders in any of the major devolved assemblies, e.g. London, Scotland or Wales.

Kezia, he's forgotten you already.

[ProfessorDavey]

Interesting that you chose to ignore Williams? Wasn't she acting manly enough for how you think women needed to behave in politics back then?

Fair point - but I don't think Williams career attained the levels of success of Castle or (of course) Thatcher.

Castle held various ministerial positions over more than a decade - from 64-76. Williams' career was much more limited (effectively just a few years in the 74-79 government). I suspect if she hadn't joined the gang of four she wouldn't be very well known at all. And interestingly, although she was one of the gang of four she was never leader. I've got a lot of time for Williams - indeed have a friend who worked for her for a long while prior to becoming an MP himself, but I don't think she is in the same category as either Castle or Thatcher in terms of mainstream political success.

[ProfessorDavey]

Kezia, he's forgotten you already.

True - mea culpa. Easily forgotten.

In my defence I doubt I could name many of the opposition leaders (or coalition leaders) of any of the parties in Holyrood in recent years - probably the only exception being Ruth Davidson. Sure, in Scotland perhaps these people are high profile, but outside of Scotland, hmm, not so much. But then again I suspect you may also need a bit of googling to find out who the GLA leaders of the Tory, LibDem and Green groups are.

[Nearly Sane]

True - mea culpa. Easily forgotten.

If you are sexist, I can see how it would be.