Interesting graph about ethnic minority MPs

[ProfessorDavey]

If you are sexist, I can see how it would be.

Yet Ruth Davidson is about the only opposition leader of recent times (except the current Labour leader) that I would easily be able to namecheck. It isn't about sex, but profile.

[Nearly Sane]

True - mea culpa. Easily forgotten.

In my defence I doubt I could name many of the opposition leaders (or coalition leaders) of any of the parties in Holyrood in recent years - probably the only exception being Ruth Davidson. Sure, in Scotland perhaps these people are high profile, but outside of Scotland, hmm, not so much. But then again I suspect you may also need a bit of googling to find out who the GLA leaders of the Tory, LibDem and Green groups are.

Oh you've added the second paragraph. And you are right I wouldn't have a clue about most of those but then I wouldn't make a categorical statement about them either.

[Nearly Sane]

Yet Ruth Davidson is about the only opposition leader of recent times (except the current Labour leader) that I would easily be able to namecheck. It isn't about sex, but profile.

Keep telling yourself that 

[ProfessorDavey]

Keep telling yourself that

And without googling could you tell me the Tory, Green and LibDem leaders in the London Assembly? Oh and by the way, they are all female.

[Nearly Sane]

And without googling could you tell me the Tory, Green and LibDem leaders in the London Assembly? Oh and by the way, they are all female.

See post 26

[ProfessorDavey]

Oh you've added the second paragraph. And you are right I wouldn't have a clue about most of those but then I wouldn't make a categorical statement about them either.

So if I'm misogynistic because I missed the previous female leader of the Labour group in Scotland (albeit did know the previous female Tory leader), what does that make you as you've freely admitted you haven't got a clue about the three women who lead the Tory, Green and LiBDem groups in London. You must be off the scale misogynistic.

[Nearly Sane]

So if I'm misogynistic because I missed the previous female leader of the Labour group in Scotland (albeit did know the previous female Tory leader), what does that make you as you've freely admitted you haven't got a clue about the three women who lead the Tory, Green and LiBDem groups in London. You must be off the scale misogynistic.

I am happy to admit the things I don't know. You not so much...

[ProfessorDavey]

Keep telling yourself that

Ruth Davidson is about the only Scottish Government politician outside the SNP who has had any significant profile south of the border in recent years. I know about the current Labour guy as there was a bit of press in a similar manner to Yousaf as he's also British Asian. Wouldn't be confident I could name the current tory leader, no idea about the LibDems and I know the Greens have two leaders, one male the other female but couldn't name either.

Perhaps all these politicians are household names in Scotland - they aren't in England - and that has nothing to do with whether they are male or female.

[Nearly Sane]

Ruth Davidson is about the only Scottish Government politician outside the SNP who has had any significant profile south of the border in recent years. I know about the current Labour guy as there was a bit of press in a similar manner to Yousaf as he's also British Asian. Wouldn't be confident I could name the current tory leader, no idea about the LibDems and I know the Greens have two leaders, one male the other female but couldn't name either.

Perhaps all these politicians are household names in Scotland - they aren't in England - and that has nothing to do with whether they are male or female.

Which is all fine if you didn't make a factually wrong statement.

[ProfessorDavey]

I am happy to admit the things I don't know. You not so much...

Have you read the first three words of reply 23 - do you know what mea culpa means. I got something wrong - I admitted to it.

[ProfessorDavey]

Which is all fine if you didn't make a factually wrong statement.

Which I admitted I got wrong. We all get things wrong once in a while, even you Chip. When this was pointed out I admitted it straight away.

[Nearly Sane]

Have you read the first three words of reply 23 - do you know what mea culpa means. I got something wrong - I admitted to it.

And since then you have tried to justify your error.

[Nearly Sane]

Which I admitted I got wrong. We all get things wrong once in a while, even you Chip. When this was pointed out I admitted it straight away.

Just to help you out, the 'Chip' thing is never going to take off. It's not obvious enough, you aren't using it enough, and it's not punchy.

And I'll admit to being perfectly balanced by having chips on both sides.

[ProfessorDavey]

Kezia, he's forgotten you already.

Why only mention Kezia - what about Johann Lamont. So I'm doubly wrong, but you seems to have forgotten her too.

But hey we don't get much coverage of opposition leaders in devolved assemblies in other parts of the country in the South East. What's your excuse.

[ProfessorDavey]

And since then you have tried to justify your error.

Explaining why you got something wrong isn't trying to claim you weren't wrong.

What's your explanation for forgetting poor old Lamont.

[ProfessorDavey]

And I'll admit to being perfectly balanced by having chips on both sides.

Chips are on your shoulder, not on your side, Chip.

[Nearly Sane]

Why only mention Kezia - what about Johann Lamont. So I'm doubly wrong, but you seems to have forgotten her too.

But hey we don't get much coverage of opposition leaders in devolved assemblies in other parts of the country in the South East. What's your excuse.

Because Kezia has a great name. I don't claim to know anything about those in the London Assembly whereas you...

[Nearly Sane]

Chips are on your shoulder, not own your side, Chip.

Did that make sense in your head?  'Own'?

[ProfessorDavey]

Because Kezia has a great name. I don't claim to know anything about those in the London Assembly whereas you...

As is Johann - seems rather odd that you'd namecheck one but ignore the other.

[ProfessorDavey]

Did that make sense in your head?  'Own'?

Corrected - rather poor of you needing to resort to pointing out typos. But hey when you've run out of credible arguments that's all you are left with.

[ProfessorDavey]

Just thinking about this issue of profile of leaders of major political parties outside of Westminster (e.g. Scotland, Wales, London) I decided to do a bit of googling to remind myself who has been leader over the past couple of decades and a few things struck me.

First just how many there have been compared to Westminster leaders - no-one seems to last more than a couple of years.

But also just how low profile some have been. So there are some on the list that I know remember were leaders - e.g. Anabel Goldie, and yes I think I did know Douglas Ross was current leader of the Scottish Tories. But there are others I genuinely don't think I've ever heard of, such as:

Jackson Carlaw - Tory - Scotland
David McLetchie - Tory - Scotland
Tavish Scott - LibDem - Scotland
Nicol Stephen - LibDem - Scotland
Paul Windsor Davies - Tory - Wales
Nick Bourne - Tory - Wales
Rod Richards - Tory - Wales
Jane Dodds - LibDem - Wales - current

I mean who knew - outside of Scotland/Wales (not sure many inside Scotland/Wales would have known either).

And I'm only going back about 20 years here.

The Welsh LibDems are interesting as there are quite a few names I know, but are either more famous for other things - e.g. Alex Carlile (the lawyer) and Lembit Opik (not really sure how to summarise his fame).

Or, most embarrassingly, the list includes one person who taught my wife when she was at school and another who is a longstanding friend (largely we've reached the christmas card only stage). In both cases I'd completely forgotten they were Welsh LibDem leaders.

[ProfessorDavey]

This appeared on my timeline.

One notable point is that the SNP have literally only had one minority ethnic MP elected at those general elections in the whole time since 1987. I think there is also Anum Qaisar, recently elected in a by-election.

Correct me please if I am wrong, but I think Yousaf is one of only two minority ethnic MSPs. So that's just 3 across the 112 SNP MPs and MSPs.

Perhaps Yousaf's achievement becoming leader of the SNP as a minority ethnic candidate is as impressive, or maybe more so than Thatcher winning the conservative party leadership as a woman in 1975.

[ProfessorDavey]

Something struck me looking at the graph in the OP.

The tories have 22 minority ethnic MPs out of about 360 in total. Yet a very high proportion of those 22 are really high profile. So for example:

James Cleverly
Kemi Badenoch
Kwasi Kwarteng
Nadhim Zahawi
Priti Patel
Rishi Sunak
Sajid Javid
Suella Braverman

All but one of these MPs have held at least one of the four high offices of state (PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary)

And that's before you throw in some lesser known ministers, such as Alok Sharma and Paul Scully.

Now typically, in a large parliamentary party you expect the 'high profile' MPs to be the tip of the ice-berg, so for every MP in a high ministerial office with high profile there are dozens of backbenchers you've never heard of below the surface.

But this isn't the case for the tories - a really high proportion of their minority ethnic MPs are high profile/high office. Now I don't tend to say this often, but hat's off to the tories for achieving this. It is one thing to end up with a single 'token' women or minority ethnic person in a high profile position, but they've managed to pack out the positions with minority ethnic  MPs. And this is a good thing from a role model perspective as once it becomes 'normalised' that of course minority ethnic MPs can be represented well at the highest level it becomes easier for young people from those backgrounds to aspire too.

And of course, currently if you look at (arguably - other opinions are available) the seven most significant political positions in office (rather than in opposition) - PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary, Mayor of London, FM of Scotland, FM of Wales - five of seven are held by people of minority ethnicity. That's actually quite remarkable and I think pretty well unimaginable just a few years ago.

[Outrider]

James Cleverly
Kemi Badenoch
Kwasi Kwarteng
Nadhim Zahawi
Priti Patel
Rishi Sunak
Sajid Javid
Suella Braverman

All but one of these MPs have held at least one of the four high offices of state (PM, Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary)

I'm not completely dismissing what you're saying, the Tories do appear to have made a concerted effort to promote a more diverse membership (to questionable effect) and a more diverse parliamentary party with better results. At the same time, given the shit-show the past year of Tory internal politics has been, is there a fringe nutjob of any colour in the elected membership that hasn't been elevated above their capability?

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm not completely dismissing what you're saying, the Tories do appear to have made a concerted effort to promote a more diverse membership (to questionable effect) and a more diverse parliamentary party with better results. At the same time, given the shit-show the past year of Tory internal politics has been, is there a fringe nutjob of any colour in the elected membership that hasn't been elevated above their capability?

O.

I don't disagree for one minute on the shit-show.

However, weirdly this is a mark of achievement in equality. The argument goes that without equality to be able to rise to the top as a woman, or as a person from a minority ethnic background you have to be truly exceptional. Clearly you need to be much better than the white men who can get to the top being deeply mediocre. This is the kind of Obama-scenario, a person so head and shoulders above all other candidates in terms of his political abilities and ability to communicate to the electorate that he was able to become president. If he'd merely been the equal of other white, male candidates he'd have had no chance.

So an odd feature of equality is the ability to rise to the top and still be shit, just as white, establishment, men have been able to do for decades.