Author Topic: Labour twitter idiocy  (Read 1336 times)

Nearly Sane

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Labour twitter idiocy
« on: April 09, 2023, 10:03:39 AM »
This latest twitter campaign for Labour, see below link, was bad to start with. That despite it immediately causing ructions, it continued, and yet appears to have a lack of official backing, would be worrying. It shows eitherba lack of control, or a lack of thought, or both The sad part is that it utilises data as if they are not about people.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-continues-rishi-sunak-attack-ad-campaign-despite-backlash/ar-AA19Dhdm

Aruntraveller

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2023, 12:44:43 PM »
Deeply disturbing.

Given that Starmer was subject to this very kind of attack re: Saville and then talked about a better type of politics, I can't imagine what persuaded him to indulge in this unpleasant and personal campaign. There would have been other ways of highlighting this government's appalling record on crime without resorting to a tactic that allows the Tories to deflect criticism.

It really is very poor.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2023, 12:53:20 PM »
Deeply disturbing.

Given that Starmer was subject to this very kind of attack re: Saville and then talked about a better type of politics, I can't imagine what persuaded him to indulge in this unpleasant and personal campaign. There would have been other ways of highlighting this government's appalling record on crime without resorting to a tactic that allows the Tories to deflect criticism.

It really is very poor.
The indications are that he didn't know about it but since it came out on Thursday has done nothing to control it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2023, 08:13:24 PM »
Deeply disturbing.

Given that Starmer was subject to this very kind of attack re: Saville and then talked about a better type of politics, I can't imagine what persuaded him to indulge in this unpleasant and personal campaign. There would have been other ways of highlighting this government's appalling record on crime without resorting to a tactic that allows the Tories to deflect criticism.

It really is very poor.

Looks like he's gone all Edith Piaf

https://archive.vn/4a1BH

SqueakyVoice

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2023, 07:49:44 PM »
Looks like he's gone all Edith Piaf

https://archive.vn/4a1BH
It's  a shame he hasn't  gone all David Blunkett (apart from the mail)
Quote
...one of the most pointed criticisms came from David Blunkett, the former Labour home secretary, who said he had been left “close to despair” by what he described as a “deeply offensive” advert, which he said marked a descent into “gutter” politics.
In a comment piece for the Mail, he wrote: “Once you resort to personal abuse, you create the risk that Britain’s public discourse will degenerate even further – to the levels that we have seen recently in the US.
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all" - D Adams

Nearly Sane

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2023, 06:31:57 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2023, 05:50:59 PM »
Never mind the lying, feel the width

https://archive.vn/Nc8Fl

SqueakyVoice

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2023, 06:33:41 PM »
https://subscribe.bylinetimes.com/product/digital-gangsters/
Quote
Online campaigning has transformed politics worldwide in the last 5 years. Electoral earthquakes such as Brexit and the Trump Presidency had online campaigning at their heart.

Ian Lucas was a key player in the world-leading Parliamentary investigation which revealed the Cambridge Analytica scandal, the dark role of Facebook and a political cover up leading to 10 Downing Street.
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all" - D Adams

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2023, 07:10:45 AM »
Deeply disturbing.

Given that Starmer was subject to this very kind of attack re: Saville and then talked about a better type of politics, I can't imagine what persuaded him to indulge in this unpleasant and personal campaign. There would have been other ways of highlighting this government's appalling record on crime without resorting to a tactic that allows the Tories to deflect criticism.

It really is very poor.
Yes they should have waited for Lynton Crosby to be wheeled out. Let him play dirty, win it again for the tories and twiddle thumbs in opposition.

Because of the strange sado masochistic relationship the English voter has with their Tory masters I'm afraid the Conservatives are likely in in perpetuity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2023, 07:57:03 AM »
Yes they should have waited for Lynton Crosby to be wheeled out. Let him play dirty, win it again for the tories and twiddle thumbs in opposition.

Because of the strange sado masochistic relationship the English voter has with their Tory masters I'm afraid the Conservatives are likely in in perpetuity.
So you are a cheerleader for lying.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2023, 08:51:59 AM »
Yes they should have waited for Lynton Crosby to be wheeled out. Let him play dirty, win it again for the tories and twiddle thumbs in opposition.

Because of the strange sado masochistic relationship the English voter has with their Tory masters I'm afraid the Conservatives are likely in in perpetuity.

Kind of the point. The tories have the best liars and the best lies. You can't beat them at a game they play so well. You have to find another way.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2023, 09:04:02 AM »
I actually think that the original ad was pretty effective, and with the roll out of more using the same basic formula I think this will prove to be a pretty effective campaign.

When I first saw the ad I assumed it was for the Tories (their territory to claim to be tough on law and order). So it was a jolt when the core was about how many people convicted of child sexual assault didn't go to prison, and then realised this was a Labour ad. I suspect plenty of others did the same.

But the point of the ads is that it does a number of things:

First it asks people to judge the government on its actions, not its words. Hence the notion that if you haven't taken actions your words ring hollow.

Secondly it places Sunak (who let's face it is PM and previously Chancellor) front and centre of the tory failures. This is an attempt to chip away at the 'like Sunak, hate the Tories' opinion of some as is the topic of another thread.

Finally it doesn't allow Sunak to effectively say 'hey I've only been PM for a few months, I'm not responsible for the last 13 years'. Rather it is based on a continuity of tory-led administrations from 2010 onwards and that anyone leading the tories must take responsibility for that entire record.

Also smart to put the controversial one out first, knowing there are countless more to come (which apparently includes local-focussed ones). If they'd put out an anodyne one first, who would have noticed - hardly anyone. Put this one out first and it's gone viral, and as all the others have the same basic format, but different message there is easy visual recognition.

Finally - I don't buy the 'oh the tories are allowed to play dirty ... and win, but Labour must play clean and lose'. Politics is politics and if it is fine for one it is fine for the other. And let's not forget that Labour don't have the right wing attack press to do much of their dirty work for them ... for free. And again that's another reason why this campaign is politically rather inspired. I gather that it has cost them virtually nothing as they didn't spend to get the adverts placed - nope the massive recognition of the ads is all don't to viral free sharing on facebook, twitter etc.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2023, 09:10:34 AM »
Well, all I know is you can't take the moral high ground and play in the gutter at the same time without sounding mightily hypocritical.

I fear this will not end well.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2023, 10:01:16 AM »
Well, all I know is you can't take the moral high ground and play in the gutter at the same time without sounding mightily hypocritical.

I fear this will not end well.
Who said anything about the moral high ground.

I think Labour have often failed when they've attempted to portray themselves as somehow morally 'better' than the tories, because clearly the people they need to convince - floating voters - aren't likely to be such moral absolutists. And actually these people will sometimes vote tory and sometimes vote labour, so portraying labour as somehow being morally better implies these people's choices were, at times (when they voted tory) morally wrong - not good politics.

No, better to identify when and why the tories have failed, and in particular appeared to have claimed one thing and delivered something else entirely (hence the adverts) - well actually delivered very little. And not to appeal to 'morals' but to the political instincts of the voters. Hence the basic message on the first ad - why on earth are you voting tory if you think child sex offenders should be locked up - look at their record and judge them on that.

Having been heavily involved in the 1997 campaign I don't remember labour focussing on moral high ground (except in one respect, more on that later) - their basic line was;

The tories have failed to deliver and their record is woeful
The tories can't govern as they are riven with ideological divisions
The tories have run out of ideas as they've been in power for ever
Labour can be trusted to do better and will focus on pragmatic solutions, not ideology
Time for a change

Sound familiar.

The only 'moral high ground stuff' was on sleaze - but that largely links to being in power too long and is evident in spades today too.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 10:13:11 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Udayana

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2023, 10:33:53 AM »
Well, all I know is you can't take the moral high ground and play in the gutter at the same time without sounding mightily hypocritical.

I fear this will not end well.

How can it "end well"?

But, as people vote for liars and cheats, surely that is what they will get?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2023, 12:02:51 PM »
I fear this will not end well.
End well for whom?

You do realise that so-called dirty politics has been with us for decades. Remember the demon eyed Blair ads in the run up to 1997, and actually the current ads are almost a carbon copy of a series of ads that pinned Gordon Brown personally to perceived failures of government, including not locking up convicted criminals.

Actually there is a big issue these days with campaign ads as they are too easy to mock up and spoof. And that makes it more tricky if you have a campaign ad with your own leader on it, as a spoof makes your leader look stupid. Anyone remember those ridiculous 'airbrushed' Cameron ads:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249616/Airbrushed-change-spoofs-David-Camerons-election-poster-swamp-web.html

So if you are going to use a recognisable figure - better an opposition one as a spoof is still likely to make that person look, at best, a bit ridiculous.


Aruntraveller

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2023, 12:46:27 PM »
How can it "end well"?

But, as people vote for liars and cheats, surely that is what they will get?

I meant not end well for the Labour Party.

The rest of your statement is unfortunately true.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2023, 12:49:41 PM »
Quote
You do realise that so-called dirty politics has been with us for decades.

Gosh, thanks for enlightening little old me. I never would have realised that without your help.

I wasn't ever disputing that. I was disputing the wisdom, or otherwise, of the Labour party trying to gain the upper hand by using this method. I don't think it will work, you evidently do. Time will tell. I don't see the need for a thesis on the issue.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2023, 01:42:29 PM »
Gosh, thanks for enlightening little old me. I never would have realised that without your help.
But you were claiming they were somehow claiming the hight moral ground - I don't think they are. And that is an important point - there have been times when Labour have implicitly or explicitly implied that they are somehow morally 'better', but that has been typically when they ended up losing, for the reasons I've indicated. Rather than implying some kind of moral superiority better to indicate:

That your opponent's record in government is shit
That your policies are, in some cases, clearly distinct from the government and aligned with what most people want
That you are competent and can do better, even if your policy intent isn't massively different

I wasn't ever disputing that. I was disputing the wisdom, or otherwise, of the Labour party trying to gain the upper hand by using this method. I don't think it will work, you evidently do. Time will tell. I don't see the need for a thesis on the issue.
Well we will see - but there are plenty of people who see this as likely to be successful. Controversial - sure, but successful.

And it isn't the usual suspect Labour supporting sourcing who seem to think this to be a likely successful approach but the default-tory FT and most astonishingly, the Daily Mail who allowed Starmer a highly positive op-ed piece on the matter. When was the last time a Labour leader was given such privileged access to the Daily Mail?

https://www.ft.com/content/a7e2908c-f058-4f64-a741-cd289afef08d
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11955043/SIR-KEIR-STARMER-Rishi-Sunak-Tories-let-criminals-away-it.html
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 01:57:39 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2023, 02:18:29 PM »
But you were claiming they were somehow claiming the hight moral ground - I don't think they are. And that is an important point - there have been times when Labour have implicitly or explicitly implied that they are somehow morally 'better', but that has been typically when they ended up losing, for the reasons I've indicated. Rather than implying some kind of moral superiority better to indicate:

That your opponent's record in government is shit
That your policies are, in some cases, clearly distinct from the government and aligned with what most people want
That you are competent and can do better, even if your policy intent isn't massively different
Well we will see - but there are plenty of people who see this as likely to be successful. Controversial - sure, but successful.

And it isn't the usual suspect Labour supporting sourcing who seem to think this to be a likely successful approach but the default-tory FT and most astonishingly, the Daily Mail who allowed Starmer a highly positive op-ed piece on the matter. When was the last time a Labour leader was given such privileged access to the Daily Mail?

https://www.ft.com/content/a7e2908c-f058-4f64-a741-cd289afef08d
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11955043/SIR-KEIR-STARMER-Rishi-Sunak-Tories-let-criminals-away-it.html

And more cheerleading for lying.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2023, 02:40:00 PM »
And more cheerleading for lying.
It is an opinion - effectively can someone credibly claim to want something in government when their actions in government speak the opposite. The point being, base someone's view on their actions, not their words.

Sure it is close to the bone, but it is challenging the credibility of words, when actions suggest otherwise. None of that can be verified factually, so it isn't really lying is it? Realistically it doesn't seem very different to accusing Corbyn of anti-sematism. He clearly denied this, and I suspect he isn't personally antisemitic, but the point was that the actions of the organisation he led spoke otherwise.

I think the points in the poster that are verifiable fact, are actually evidenced as such ... on the poster.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2023, 02:43:41 PM »
It is an opinion - effectively can someone credibly claim to want something in government when their actions in government speak the opposite. The point being, base someone's view on their actions, not their words.

Sure it is close to the bone, but it is challenging the credibility of words, when actions suggest otherwise. None of that can be verified factually, so it isn't really lying is it? Realistically it doesn't seem very different to accusing Corbyn of anti-sematism. He clearly denied this, and I suspect he isn't personally antisemitic, but the point was that the actions of the organisation he led spoke otherwise.

I think the points in the poster that are verifiable fact, are actually evidenced as such ... on the poster.
No, it's an outright lie about Sunak and you are celebrating it.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2023, 02:53:19 PM »
No, it's an outright lie about Sunak and you are celebrating it.
No it isn't - it is an opinion. Effectively that the authors of the poster do no believe that Sunak can credibly think x or y because the actions of his government are the opposite of x and y. It is based on the age old concept that actions speak louder than words.

Why is this a lie:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11960037/Keir-Starmer-targets-Rishi-Sunaks-WIFE-non-dom-taxes-steps-dirty-war-against-PM.html

What's so hard to understand.

But the point is that everyone is talking about it and therefore the message about the government's record and the chasm between what they claim and what they actually do is hitting home.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2023, 02:55:53 PM »
No it isn't - it is an opinion. Effectively that the authors of the poster do no believe that Sunak can credibly think x or y because the actions of his government are the opposite of x and y. It is based on the age old concept that actions speak louder than words.

Why is this a lie:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11960037/Keir-Starmer-targets-Rishi-Sunaks-WIFE-non-dom-taxes-steps-dirty-war-against-PM.html

What's so hard to understand.

But the point is that everyone is talking about it and therefore the message about the government's record and the chasm between what they claim and what they actually do is hitting home.
Your justification of lying because it gets people talking indicates that you are no better than Johnson.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 02:58:54 PM by Nearly Sane »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Labour twitter idiocy
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2023, 03:01:44 PM »
Your justification of lying because it gers people talking indicates that you are no better than Johnson.
But as I've pointed out it is an opinion based on whether an individual (or a government's) views should be based on their words or their actions. The point of the poster is to say it should be based on actions and results, not warm, wooly words. In what way is that a 'lie' rather than an opinion?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 04:27:31 PM by ProfessorDavey »