US Presidential Election 2024

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We shouldn't doubt that if elected again, Trump will surround himself with equally dodgy people with everything but the interests of their nation and western democratic values at heart.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/19/intelligencer-pro-russia-website-trump

[Nearly Sane]

"Harris says anyone breaking into her home is 'getting shot'" - this definitely doesn't feel like a slip but a planned statement.


https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4yxe2xxzdo

[Christine]

I completely agree. However, Twitter, FB and the like, that run complicated algorithms to push certain ideologies at you are the complete opposite of free speech.

My FB timeline has been completely taken over by RW groups from America who I have nothing in common with.
Why is this happening?

Because I've challenged the odd post in the past?

Because they've identified me as someone who is susceptible to blatant propoganda?

I really don't know.

The net effect is to make me withdraw from FB. I'm sure Zuckerberg can stand the loss but I won't be using FB for anything other than pics of fluffy kittens and the like. The same goes for Twitter.

Anyone who thinks these platforms in some way uphold free speech is sadly mistaken. They uphold the interests of the billionnaire owners. Nothing more.

Seeing and hearing lots of things you don't agree with sounds like the opposite of an echo chamber? I'm not on FaceBook. I cross check every story I find interesting or informative between media outlets and sources I've found reliable in the past. I certainly don't trust the BBC or the Guardian to tell me the truth.

I was where most of you are now 3 or 4 years ago and if my eyes hadn't been opened by personal experiences, I would probably be agreeing with you.

I hope whoever wins the election isn't as bad as one or the other of us thinks they will be. Time will tell.

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I was where most of you are now 3 or 4 years ago and if my eyes hadn't been opened by personal experiences, I would probably be agreeing with you.

It goes both ways, of course. I have the opposite experience. A few years back I had slipped some way down the alt-right route. Then covid and the fullscale invasion of Ukraine happened and my eyes opened to my folly. No one says mainstream media is perfect but
it's mainstream for a reason: it sometimes makes mistakes but mostly has a fairly decent record of impartiality and reliability.

[Aruntraveller]

Seeing and hearing lots of things you don't agree with sounds like the opposite of an echo chamber?

Missing my point.

It has become an echo chamber for the most racist, misogynistic and homophobic elements within our societies.

Moderate voices don't get a look in. Some left-wing views do, but in nothing like the quantity of the said shit above.

They feed off one another, and amplify their hatred and just because one/some of their views chime with personal experiences does not mean they have other people's welfare at heart. They don't.

Stopped clock syndrome.

[Nearly Sane]

Missing my point.

It has become an echo chamber for the most racist, misogynistic and homophobic elements within our societies.

Moderate voices don't get a look in. Some left-wing views do, but in nothing like the quantity of the said shit above.

They feed off one another, and amplify their hatred and just because one/some of their views chime with personal experiences does not mean they have other people's welfare at heart. They don't.

Stopped clock syndrome.

At the time of the Stockport riots  Prof D claimed I wouldn't have seen anything instigating them, and yet I did. The algorithm can create echo chambers but I'm not sure as a whole it's easy to say X itself is one, or that certain voices predominate more - other than Musk's who seems to be pimping up his own tweets.

[Christine]

Missing my point.

It has become an echo chamber for the most racist, misogynistic and homophobic elements within our societies.

Moderate voices don't get a look in. Some left-wing views do, but in nothing like the quantity of the said shit above.

They feed off one another, and amplify their hatred and just because one/some of their views chime with personal experiences does not mean they have other people's welfare at heart. They don't.

Stopped clock syndrome.

Sorry, yes, I misunderstood. My experience of X is different. I see posts from people I follow and related content, not all of it from my current point of view, but obviously focused on my main area of interest. I see some stuff I don’t like - I block if necessary - and I have to block a few bots from following me, but I’m not blue-ticked, so I don’t get so many of those. I follow several knowledgable, honest and informative people reinstated by Musk after being banned for years for using words or phrases somebody found offensive.

I don’t know why you think other people are so susceptible to influence, but you aren’t. I want to be able to judge for myself what’s credible and what’s not. I can make my own judgments about the reliability of commentators.

[Christine]

You need to take off your rose tinted spectacles. The people you have listed are only out for themselves. They don't care about you or anybody else.

Right back at you Jeremy.

What has Musk done that's so bad? I know he called a good man a bad name (boo!) and has suggested setting confused children on a pathway to a lifetime of self-deception and drugs is wrong, which some people seem to think is bad (I don't) but apart from that?

[Aruntraveller]

I don’t know why you think other people are so susceptible to influence, but you aren’t

I didn't know I had said that.

From my experience of the said platforms, I feel that they want to force me to read content that I would not normally read, not from any aspiration to enlighten me, but more to enrage/upset/shock me.

I don't have anything in common with, for instance, Darren Grimes, and yet there he is every day at the top of my twitter feed spouting his bile. Yes, I could block him but I'd only get Carole Malone pop up in his place. It would go on forever. No point. Therefore I don't engage.

Sadly, I don't think we are likely to agree on this.

I'll just end by saying that free speech does not come with freedom of responsibility for that speech.

Unfortunately, few people seem willing to hold Musk et al responsible for the consequences of their lack of responsibility.

[Christine]

I didn't know I had said that.

From my experience of the said platforms, I feel that they want to force me to read content that I would not normally read, not from any aspiration to enlighten me, but more to enrage/upset/shock me.

I don't have anything in common with, for instance, Darren Grimes, and yet there he is every day at the top of my twitter feed spouting his bile. Yes, I could block him but I'd only get Carole Malone pop up in his place. It would go on forever. No point. Therefore I don't engage.

Sadly, I don't think we are likely to agree on this.

I'll just end by saying that free speech does not come with freedom of responsibility for that speech.

Unfortunately, few people seem willing to hold Musk et al responsible for the consequences of their lack of responsibility.

This: "They feed off one another, and amplify their hatred and just because one/some of their views chime with personal experiences does not mean they have other people's welfare at heart. They don't" seemed to mean that you can see truth and meaning that other people can't. Apologies if I'm wrong again, but how do you know what other people have "at heart"? If you don't want to read what they write, don't, but don't tell me I can't read it either.

Individuals are responsible for what they say and do.

We probably aren't going to agree about this, and that's alright isn't it?

[Aruntraveller]

Individuals are responsible for what they say and do.

Indeed.

Example for you. Is this free speech or is this incitement? Does Musk have any responsibility here? If so, what? If not, why not?  (PS this Tweeter has been reported multiple times - not by me, and if you care to look at the content it is all still there) I would suggest that the word responsible is not being honoured in any way in this instance. If you disagree then we do not have anything further to say to each other. And you ask if it is alright to disagree - on most things yes. On this no.

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed.

Example for you. Is this free speech or is this incitement? Does Musk have any responsibility here? If so, what? If not, why not?  (PS this Tweeter has been reported multiple times - not by me, and if you care to look at the content it is all still there) I would suggest that the word responsible is not being honoured in any way in this instance. If you disagree then we do not have anything further to say to each other. And you ask if it is alright to disagree - on most things yes. On this no.

Worth pointing out that's not a unique example, nor is it confined to inciting violence against says. That said there were a lot of posts inciting violence against certain groups on twitter prior to Musk that were allowed because they were acceptable to that censorship regime.

ETA - One of the things here is thatbsocial media needs to be treated more like it's publishing the content rather than just an karaoke bar.

[Aruntraveller]

Worth pointing out that's not a unique example, nor is it confined to inciting violence against says. That said there were a lot of posts inciting violence against certain groups on twitter prior to Musk that were allowed because they were acceptable to that censorship regime..

Indeed. Migrants, MP's, JK Rowling spring immediately to mind.

[Nearly Sane]

Indeed. Migrants, MP's, JK Rowling spring immediately to mind.

I think it's worse under Musk but it's arguably less partial.

[Nearly Sane]

Been listening to the Americast podcast, thought this was a really interesting episode on the assassinations attempts, and protecting candidates.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00230b6

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I think it's worse under Musk but it's arguably less partial.

It's definitely much worse. Especially since Musk drastically cut down the Twitter workforce and the report function is automated and next to usesless.

[Nearly Sane]

It's definitely much worse. Especially since Musk drastically cut down the Twitter workforce and the report function is automated and next to usesless.

Agree but I'd still raise the point that such threats were allowed under the previous ownership on a partial basis against people they didn't think merited protection so it wasn't a land of milk and honey

[jeremyp]

I agree with a lot of this but the Supreme Court stuff is common to both parties in recent times.

No it isn't.

The Democrats tend to go for qualified people, if they can get them confirmed by Congress at all. Republicans put shills in.

And I'm not convinced that the telling Christians they only need to vote once is really about getting rid of voting. I think he was trying to say that he would sort everything.

Well that's what it sounded like.

[jeremyp]

I cross check every story I find interesting or informative between media outlets and sources I've found reliable in the past.

Well how come you've missed the fact that Musk is a lying sleezeball?

I certainly don't trust the BBC or the Guardian to tell me the truth.

Those two sources are probably amongst the most reliable.

I was where most of you are now 3 or 4 years ago and if my eyes hadn't been opened by personal experiences, I would probably be agreeing with you.

The trouble with personal experience is that it always seems more real than the balanced picture. A lot of people had personal experiences on January 6th 2021. Many of them are now in prison. Many are traumatised. Some had life changing injuries and some are dead.

And yet you still cling to Tr*mp. He's far worse than Harris.

[Nearly Sane]

No it isn't.

The Democrats tend to go for qualified people, if they can get them confirmed by Congress at all. Republicans put shills in.
Well that's what it sounded like.

I think you're seeing things from a partial point of view. The candidates that both parties have put forward have become more partial over the years from both sides. And, of course, there's been a lot of rhetoric from the Dems about increasing the number of justices in order to put their views in their ascendancy. In the end it's a lousy system.

And the same for the Christian comment. In order to make it have the meaning you think, you have to take it in isolation and ignore that there's no clear statements about getting rid of elections in the rest of the speech or speeches, or political positions 

[jeremyp]

What has Musk done that's so bad?

He cheated the founders of Tesla out of their company.

He lies about the on sale dates of his products

He lies about the capabilities of his products.

He goes round trying to impregnate as many women as possible

He comes up with crazy transport schemes designed to do nothing more than sabotage sensible ones so he can sell more Teslas.

He has almost destroyed a perfectly good social media company, including sacking many of its staff and failing to pay them their legally entitled severance packages.

He doesn't pay his suppliers and landlords at Twitter.

He swindled Tesla shareholders out of money by selling his failing solar energy company to Tesla.

He propositioned a flight attendant on a SpaceX jet offering a pony for sexual favours.

These are a few of the bad things about Elon Musk I can think of just off the top of my head.

I know he called a good man a bad name (boo!)

To be clear, he called Vernon Unsworth a pedophile. That's slightly worse than "a bad name" especially considering he has millions of sycophant followers who will just accept his word.

and has suggested setting confused children on a pathway to a lifetime of self-deception and drugs is wrong, which some people seem to think is bad (I don't) but apart from that?

Even bad people can be right occasionally. Famously, Hitler was a vegetarian, but you don't hear any vegetarians saying "he can't be all bad: he doesn't eat meat."

[jeremyp]

I think you're seeing things from a partial point of view.

No I'm not. Just look at the quality of the people in the Supreme Court in recent years.

[ad_orientem]

Agree but I'd still raise the point that such threats were allowed under the previous ownership on a partial basis against people they didn't think merited protection so it wasn't a land of milk and honey

Yeah, true.

[Nearly Sane]

Yeah, true.

I think Musk is more dangerous because he seems to actively encourage stuff as proof of how ftrre speech he is in order to make the argument that Twitter should not be regulated because that would be a cost to him.


Add to that and his positioning of it as primarily a news source seems to me to be making it primarily a hud of disinformation and hate with no regulation.

[Christine]

Aruntraveller - I think that post is disgusting. I would block the poster. If you don't want to talk to me anymore, fair enough.

Jeremy - I think I get that you don't like Trump or Musk. Thanks for your list. I'll let you know if I find anything in your claims to change my mind when I've researched them, since you helpfully didn't provide any links. You think I'm clinging to Trump and the BBC and The Guardian are reliable? Okay. I disagree. 

I'm finding this discussion quite stressful, but I think it's good for me. I've not changed my view that, on balance, I would prefer Trump to win the US election this year.

I think I'll watch Kamala Harris on Oprah now. You never know, she might change my mind about her.