Author Topic: US Presidential Election 2024  (Read 34866 times)

Aruntraveller

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #600 on: October 18, 2024, 03:13:54 PM »
Given the evidence of political manipulation on behalf of governments and powerful lobby groups by other social media platforms, I think it's just as well there is a counterbalance.

I stand by what I said before. Preventing people from expressing opinions you find offensive, dangerous, ill-informed etc is counter-productive. The antidote to speech you disagree with is more speech, facts and good arguments. We have laws against incitement to crime and making threats already, which are being enforced (though not without prejudice).

I see Starmer has had Bill Gates and the CEO of Blackrock round for tea at No 10. I feel the same way about that as I did about Blair inviting Rupert Murdoch in. I certainly don't trust any of them to decide what "misinformation" is. Often it boils down to information they don't like.

I don't think it's sad that we disagree. I disagree with people, some of them friends, about many things. It'd be boring otherwise, and a recipe for being wrong. In my opinion.

You have heard about shouting fire in a full theatre I presume.

Free speech is not an absolute. There have to be consequences for some free speech.

You say:
Quote
The antidote to speech you disagree with is more speech, facts and good arguments.

That's not how X works. It amplifies the lies. Furthermore, it amplifies the rightwing lies to a much greater extent. Otherwise, why is my feed full of RW content, when I now purposely choose to follow only left-of-centre posters etc. Yet they seldom show up. Who do I get? Katie fucking Hopkins for goodness sake.

Anyway, I return to the post I put up when we first discussed this, and I'd be interested to know how you think it is acceptable that X and by extension, Musk leave content like that on the platform. I am genuinely perplexed by your attitude. I repost as a reminder.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2024, 03:19:31 PM by Aruntraveller »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #601 on: October 18, 2024, 11:36:29 PM »
You have heard about shouting fire in a full theatre I presume.

Free speech is not an absolute. There have to be consequences for some free speech.

You say:
That's not how X works. It amplifies the lies. Furthermore, it amplifies the rightwing lies to a much greater extent. Otherwise, why is my feed full of RW content, when I now purposely choose to follow only left-of-centre posters etc. Yet they seldom show up. Who do I get? Katie fucking Hopkins for goodness sake.

Anyway, I return to the post I put up when we first discussed this, and I'd be interested to know how you think it is acceptable that X and by extension, Musk leave content like that on the platform. I am genuinely perplexed by your attitude. I repost as a reminder.
I'd add these posts 2 here, and another post to follow. Is this the free speech on twitter that you are standing up for, Christine?

Screenshot removed, point having been made.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2024, 11:47:49 AM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #602 on: October 18, 2024, 11:37:52 PM »
And next two.

Screenshots removed, point having been made
« Last Edit: October 19, 2024, 11:47:16 AM by Nearly Sane »

Christine

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #603 on: October 19, 2024, 10:52:03 AM »
Hi. I saw those posts, Nearly Sane. They were posted to a woman defending women's rights and demonstrate the depravity of the person who posted them. I think they were reported, hopefully to the police (though they don't seem to take threats against women nearly as seriously as the horrific hate crime of calling a man "he"). I expect they peaked quite a few casual scrollers. Operation Let Them Speak.

I have acknowledged the limits to free speech - threats, incitement, libel/slander - there are remedies available in law already for these things. I'm not in favour of censorship. For most of my life it has been socially unacceptable to use certain words and/or believe certain things (at least in my circles). It doesn't seem to have stopped people thinking hateful thoughts. The apparent surprise of the western political establishment at the current popularity of the so-called "right-wing" is a testament to the inefficacy of trying to silence views you disagree with.

Why republish such vile content? Do you think I'm unaware? Do you think it constitutes an argument? I already share your views about equality before the law, personal freedom etc - I'm a liberal. Of course I wish people didn't think like that. But they do.

I have been surrounded by a baying mob, enabled by the police, calling me a fascist, threatening me, telling me to get off their streets. According to them, saying that men aren't women is a "hate crime". They find it offensive. Should I be silenced?








Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #604 on: October 19, 2024, 11:40:52 AM »
Because Musk allows such content to be published without stopping it. He facilitates it. The post that Aruntraveller put up remains up despite many complaints. Musk is not passive in this  and saying he's just standing up for free speech ignores thar he helps such threats be made.

That you think that there should be consequences for free speech means you do believe in censorship. Should child poronography that is AI produced be allowed on Twitter? If your answer to that is no, then you believe in censorship.

ETA and having made the point, I've removed the screenshots


 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2024, 11:55:52 AM by Nearly Sane »

jeremyp

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #605 on: October 19, 2024, 12:18:36 PM »

Hey but it is 'privately' funded and 'commercial'

Well that's what they say, but a significant portion of SpaceX's funding has always come from NASA and I think NASA is probably bankrolling the entire Starship programme.
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ad_orientem

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #606 on: October 19, 2024, 12:34:37 PM »
Hi. I saw those posts, Nearly Sane. They were posted to a woman defending women's rights and demonstrate the depravity of the person who posted them. I think they were reported, hopefully to the police (though they don't seem to take threats against women nearly as seriously as the horrific hate crime of calling a man "he"). I expect they peaked quite a few casual scrollers. Operation Let Them Speak.

I have acknowledged the limits to free speech - threats, incitement, libel/slander - there are remedies available in law already for these things. I'm not in favour of censorship. For most of my life it has been socially unacceptable to use certain words and/or believe certain things (at least in my circles). It doesn't seem to have stopped people thinking hateful thoughts. The apparent surprise of the western political establishment at the current popularity of the so-called "right-wing" is a testament to the inefficacy of trying to silence views you disagree with.

Why republish such vile content? Do you think I'm unaware? Do you think it constitutes an argument? I already share your views about equality before the law, personal freedom etc - I'm a liberal. Of course I wish people didn't think like that. But they do.

I have been surrounded by a baying mob, enabled by the police, calling me a fascist, threatening me, telling me to get off their streets. According to them, saying that men aren't women is a "hate crime". They find it offensive. Should I be silenced?

Is that the only reason you support Trump? All the other things don't worry you, like sucking up to dictators, being a con artist, being a rapist etc 
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Christine

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #607 on: October 20, 2024, 07:26:26 AM »
Because Musk allows such content to be published without stopping it. He facilitates it. The post that Aruntraveller put up remains up despite many complaints. Musk is not passive in this  and saying he's just standing up for free speech ignores thar he helps such threats be made.

That you think that there should be consequences for free speech means you do believe in censorship. Should child poronography that is AI produced be allowed on Twitter? If your answer to that is no, then you believe in censorship.

ETA and having made the point, I've removed the screenshots

I’ve had a good think about what you’ve said. Yes, I don’t think free speech is absolute. I do think that all attempts to limit it should be resisted, scrutinised, mulled over extensively, the motives of the proposal makers researched, and the unintended potential deleterious consequences of any restrictions carefully considered. Hard cases = bad law.

In liberal democracies we have a legal code, passed by whatever legislative body we’ve given the job, preferably after thorough examination of the evidence and robust discussion of the need for any new legislation at all. (Shame our politicians are startlingly poor quality and our institutions don’t even pretend to be politically neutral anymore.)

If I think a law is wrong, and I break it, then I face the consequences. Everyone should be treated equally under the law. Nobody has a “right” to not be offended. 

Empowering politicians - or any group with power over our lives - to decide what the “truth” is about ANYTHING is very dangerous. In my opinion. What I or anyone else finds offensive should not be the standard for censorship.

I agree with these philosophical positions:

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” (probably Voltaire)

“...the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth; if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth produced by its collision with error.” (JS Mill)

I think Peter Tatchell’s views on the age of consent and related activism are disgusting, dangerous and morally bankrupt, but I’m glad he wrote that review of that book, and that The Guardian published his disgusting letter, and that the BBC think he’s the go-to guy for comments on “inclusivity”, because it exposes him and the BBC and all his apologists for what they are.

https://lilymaynard.com/what-did-peter-tatchell-really-say/

You can’t control people’s thoughts and reality won’t be denied indefinitely.

Here’s a screenshot from X. I love mslisterssis. She makes pithy, intelligent, accurate short videos that I generally agree with every word of.



« Last Edit: October 20, 2024, 07:40:18 AM by Christine »

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #608 on: October 20, 2024, 10:54:13 AM »
I’ve had a good think about what you’ve said. Yes, I don’t think free speech is absolute. I do think that all attempts to limit it should be resisted, scrutinised, mulled over extensively, the motives of the proposal makers researched, and the unintended potential deleterious consequences of any restrictions carefully considered. Hard cases = bad law.

In liberal democracies we have a legal code, passed by whatever legislative body we’ve given the job, preferably after thorough examination of the evidence and robust discussion of the need for any new legislation at all. (Shame our politicians are startlingly poor quality and our institutions don’t even pretend to be politically neutral anymore.)

If I think a law is wrong, and I break it, then I face the consequences. Everyone should be treated equally under the law. Nobody has a “right” to not be offended. 

Empowering politicians - or any group with power over our lives - to decide what the “truth” is about ANYTHING is very dangerous. In my opinion. What I or anyone else finds offensive should not be the standard for censorship.

I agree with these philosophical positions:

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” (probably Voltaire)

“...the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth; if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth produced by its collision with error.” (JS Mill)

I think Peter Tatchell’s views on the age of consent and related activism are disgusting, dangerous and morally bankrupt, but I’m glad he wrote that review of that book, and that The Guardian published his disgusting letter, and that the BBC think he’s the go-to guy for comments on “inclusivity”, because it exposes him and the BBC and all his apologists for what they are.

https://lilymaynard.com/what-did-peter-tatchell-really-say/

You can’t control people’s thoughts and reality won’t be denied indefinitely.

Here’s a screenshot from X. I love mslisterssis. She makes pithy, intelligent, accurate short videos that I generally agree with every word of.
The thing is that if you don't believe in free speech is absolute, you don't agree with those philosophical positions because they are presented as absolutes.

My issue with Musk and Trump, is that they aren't guardians of free speech that I would trust any more than anyone else. Musk's attempts to sue companies that stopped advertising on Twitter, as well as his acceptance of restrictions from Indoa and China to make more money, show that he's merely a self interested grifter.



Christine

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #609 on: October 20, 2024, 11:07:52 AM »
The thing is that if you don't believe in free speech is absolute, you don't agree with those philosophical positions because they are presented as absolutes.

My issue with Musk and Trump, is that they aren't guardians of free speech that I would trust any more than anyone else. Musk's attempts to sue companies that stopped advertising on Twitter, as well as his acceptance of restrictions from Indoa and China to make more money, show that he's merely a self interested grifter.

I disagree. Expressing an opinion is not the same as making a threat or inciting violence or distributing material depicting child abuse. Even if the opinions expressed are about those subjects.

I also disagree about Musk. I don't know what his personal motivations are, but the people who want me to accept the equivalent of 2+2=5 and would prosecute me for saying otherwise are the bigger threat to my freedom and safety, in my opinion.


Aruntraveller

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #610 on: October 20, 2024, 11:12:59 AM »
Quote
Expressing an opinion is not the same as making a threat or inciting violence

It isn't.

But Musk continues to allow threats and incitement. You've seen the posts allowed on Twitter and you still think he's worthy of your respect?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #611 on: October 20, 2024, 11:28:45 AM »
I disagree. Expressing an opinion is not the same as making a threat or inciting violence or distributing material depicting child abuse. Even if the opinions expressed are about those subjects.

I also disagree about Musk. I don't know what his personal motivations are, but the people who want me to accept the equivalent of 2+2=5 and would prosecute me for saying otherwise are the bigger threat to my freedom and safety, in my opinion.
If I say I think all homosexuals should be burnt, it is an opinion. It's just one that you've decided isn't acceptable to be expressed.

I've given you a couple of examples where Musk challenges free speech, and where he accepts restrictions on speech for money. Which are obvious reasons why you shouldn't trust him. Saying that you trust him more than others when that shows he's lying means you are giving him a free pass to be a liar.

He publishes the threats such as the ones I put up, and the one Aruntraveller. He is not passive in that. If you think that incitement to violence is wrong, then facilitating that by publishing it is surely wrong?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2024, 11:46:06 AM by Nearly Sane »

Christine

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #612 on: October 20, 2024, 01:13:03 PM »
If I say I think all homosexuals should be burnt, it is an opinion. It's just one that you've decided isn't acceptable to be expressed.

I've given you a couple of examples where Musk challenges free speech, and where he accepts restrictions on speech for money. Which are obvious reasons why you shouldn't trust him. Saying that you trust him more than others when that shows he's lying means you are giving him a free pass to be a liar.

He publishes the threats such as the ones I put up, and the one Aruntraveller. He is not passive in that. If you think that incitement to violence is wrong, then facilitating that by publishing it is surely wrong?

I could list things that people on the 'other side' have done and said that I'm sure you would find objectionable and plenty of things they've said which are objectively untrue. Other social and traditional media platforms publish content that I find both threatening and offensive, and much that I believe to be untrue. I wouldn't stop them even if I could.

If our preferred candidate doesn't win the election, I hope we are both wrong about the consequences. If you see what I mean.




Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #613 on: October 20, 2024, 01:23:53 PM »
I could list things that people on the 'other side' have done and said that I'm sure you would find objectionable and plenty of things they've said which are objectively untrue. Other social and traditional media platforms publish content that I find both threatening and offensive, and much that I believe to be untrue. I wouldn't stop them even if I could.

If our preferred candidate doesn't win the election, I hope we are both wrong about the consequences. If you see what I mean.
Which would be whataboutery - the point is that I have no trust in someone, Musk and Trumo, who obviously lie, about such things as free speech. And are happy to incite violence, and to publish incitement to violence.


I wouldn't vote Democrat either had I a vote.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #614 on: October 20, 2024, 01:34:52 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Gordon

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #616 on: October 21, 2024, 07:02:53 PM »
Newsthump is always a hoot - if ever there was someone who was congenitally unsuited for high political office it is this fuckwit of a felon.


https://newsthump.com/2024/10/21/mcdonalds-praised-for-giving-work-experience-to-convicted-felon/?mc_cid=9935237333&mc_eid=ee8be6ec71

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #617 on: October 23, 2024, 09:17:44 AM »
Labour volunteers helping Harris 'in spare time'.

I doubt Farage paid for his accomodation


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62m2pde4p6o

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #618 on: October 23, 2024, 06:08:14 PM »
Interesting essay by Nate Silver, whose gut is in the same place as mine on this.


https://archive.vn/9P1iB

Aruntraveller

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #619 on: October 23, 2024, 08:21:23 PM »
Mine too. A very uncomfortable feeling.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #620 on: October 24, 2024, 02:56:59 PM »
Harris calls Trump a fascist. I sadly agree with Trump here that it's a sign of desperation. In a close race, it's not appealing to wavering voters to say that one of the choices that they might be considering is a fascist because it translates into 'you are a fascist'.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1dp7xnyr51o

Outrider

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #621 on: October 24, 2024, 03:24:11 PM »
Harris calls Trump a fascist. I sadly agree with Trump here that it's a sign of desperation. In a close race, it's not appealing to wavering voters to say that one of the choices that they might be considering is a fascist because it translates into 'you are a fascist'.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1dp7xnyr51o

If it were hyperbole I'd agree with you, and unfortunately given that the American elections in recent years have been so prone to it this seems like just more of the same, but to take Merriam-Webster's definition (as an example):

a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition

Of that, the only bit you can argue strongly about, perhaps, is the economic regimentation. Trump, and his Project 2025 loonbags want to fire everyone from the Federal government that isn't loyal to Trump, to deny rights to women, gay people, the trans community and, by implication if not as explicitly, minorities and non-whites.

If you have to make the point that technically because of their economic commitment to subsidising oligarchs they're not an exact match for the Nazis, they're fascist enough for it to be a fair commentary.

O.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #622 on: October 24, 2024, 03:25:49 PM »
Of course, the fact that it is a sign of desperation doesn't make it untrue.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #623 on: October 24, 2024, 03:48:40 PM »
If it were hyperbole I'd agree with you, and unfortunately given that the American elections in recent years have been so prone to it this seems like just more of the same, but to take Merriam-Webster's definition (as an example):

a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition

Of that, the only bit you can argue strongly about, perhaps, is the economic regimentation. Trump, and his Project 2025 loonbags want to fire everyone from the Federal government that isn't loyal to Trump, to deny rights to women, gay people, the trans community and, by implication if not as explicitly, minorities and non-whites.

If you have to make the point that technically because of their economic commitment to subsidising oligarchs they're not an exact match for the Nazis, they're fascist enough for it to be a fair commentary.

O.
The argument from many people who might vote Republican is that the Democrats are the party of greater centralisation, and less about the freedom of the individual. So by the definition there they would see the Democrats as fitting it more than the Republicans.



Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #624 on: October 24, 2024, 03:53:50 PM »
Of course, the fact that it is a sign of desperation doesn't make it untrue.
is it true that those thinking of maybe voting Republican are fascist? Because as covered that's what those swithering votes will hear. Trump's a demagogue but I Don's see thar it's about a centralised govt and greater rehimentation. After all the party talking about the restriction of the first amendment are the Democrats.




« Last Edit: October 24, 2024, 04:04:21 PM by Nearly Sane »