Author Topic: US Presidential Election 2024  (Read 34794 times)

Outrider

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #625 on: October 24, 2024, 04:27:26 PM »
The argument from many people who might vote Republican is that the Democrats are the party of greater centralisation, and less about the freedom of the individual.

Centralisation isn't authoritarianism, though, that's just fundamentally misunderstanding the term. That many Republican supporters might complete morons doesn't mean that Harris shouldn't be calling the great orange twatwaffle exactly what he is - and, let's not forget, this isn't coming out of nowhere, this is coming on the back of yet another of his military chiefs of staff making the case that he's a fascist, and her being asked about it.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #626 on: October 24, 2024, 04:31:39 PM »
Centralisation isn't authoritarianism, though, that's just fundamentally misunderstanding the term. That many Republican supporters might complete morons doesn't mean that Harris shouldn't be calling the great orange twatwaffle exactly what he is - and, let's not forget, this isn't coming out of nowhere, this is coming on the back of yet another of his military chiefs of staff making the case that he's a fascist, and her being asked about it.

O.
Your definition included centralisation though so you would seem be cherry picking. And again, if you are talking about individual freedom, there is a clear argument that Trump could be seem as more supportive of that than Harris.

Trump is dangerous not because he is an ideologue but because he isn't.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #627 on: October 25, 2024, 09:16:17 AM »
Trump appearing.on the Joe Rogan podcast. Interesting analysis of strategies used in the campaigns.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjr4dnv91p7o
« Last Edit: October 25, 2024, 10:22:57 AM by Nearly Sane »

Dicky Underpants

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Aruntraveller

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Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #630 on: October 25, 2024, 11:04:21 PM »
Fascist enough I think:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/25/donald-trump-next-president-fascist
And I see nothing more than than everyone I don't like is fascist. That first paragraph where he puts up irrelevant accusations to poison the well.

It's the same lazy rhetoric as calling the Democrats communists, and yet again plays into making the swithering voters who just hear themselves being called fascists, and that's why it appears to me that the Democrats will lose.

The Democrats are the ones talking about restricting the first amendment. 

Both parties seem to me taking positions I would never vote for. And the lazy attempts at slurs from both just underline that.


ETA I feel the Democrats lost by having Biden as the candidate when he.obviously wasn't fit.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2024, 11:39:57 PM by Nearly Sane »

Aruntraveller

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #631 on: October 26, 2024, 09:13:19 AM »
Quote
The Democrats are the ones talking about restricting the first amendment.

I don't think the First Amendment hoo-ha is restricted to the Democrats:

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4935068-politicians-undermine-free-expression/

Frankly, I find your approach to this bewildering. Still feels fascist enough to me.

Given a choice between Trump and Harris, I can't see why you wouldn't vote for Harris. She's not ideal, I get that, but given the choice?

I don't like the idea of a lying, criminal, woman-abusing, racist, claims to be Christian (lie), degenerate, foul-mouthed, enfeebled man leading the USA.

That's just me though. You do you.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #632 on: October 26, 2024, 11:14:41 AM »
I don't think the First Amendment hoo-ha is restricted to the Democrats:

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4935068-politicians-undermine-free-expression/

Frankly, I find your approach to this bewildering. Still feels fascist enough to me.

Given a choice between Trump and Harris, I can't see why you wouldn't vote for Harris. She's not ideal, I get that, but given the choice?

I don't like the idea of a lying, criminal, woman-abusing, racist, claims to be Christian (lie), degenerate, foul-mouthed, enfeebled man leading the USA.

That's just me though. You do you.
I don't like the idea of Trump leading either. I think he's dangerous not because he is a fascist but because he's a demagogue with no principles.

I don't like the idea of Harris leading because she was content till others spoke up to have Biden, who was obviously incapable, as the candidate, and is content to have him continue as President, when he's obviously incapable. She's not a demagogue but she appears to have no policy and has flip flopped continuously.

 It's an utterly disastrous choice for the US.and us.

Trump's attack on the first amendment is because he doesn',t think anything about democracy os important and is an off the cuff remark - which illustrates why he is dangerous but not fascist.

The Democrats concerted attack on the first amendment by various elite functionaries within it seem much more likely to be be implemented.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2024, 11:08:28 AM by Nearly Sane »

SteveH

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #633 on: October 26, 2024, 09:11:16 PM »
Been re-watching the original British 'The Office', and realised that Trump reminds me of David Brent [ both narcissistic and completely lacking in self-knowledge with a vastly inflated opinion of their abilities; both crudely sexist; both have irritating mannerisms; and one's got a stupid hairstyle while the others got a stupid beard.
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SteveH

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #634 on: October 26, 2024, 09:58:00 PM »
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #635 on: October 27, 2024, 11:11:50 AM »
Jonathan Freedland on whether Trump s a fascist.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/25/donald-trump-next-president-fascist
Aruntraveller linked to this in #629, and I replied to it. Trump is not an ideologue, and I don't think that makes him less dangerous but more so. But using the term fascist here is dangerous as well, as it will be heard on the minds of swithering voters as calling them fascist. The polarisation is politics is in part driven by the lazy use of such rhetoric.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #636 on: October 29, 2024, 05:22:30 PM »
Aruntraveller linked to this in #629, and I replied to it. Trump is not an ideologue, and I don't think that makes him less dangerous but more so. But using the term fascist here is dangerous as well, as it will be heard on the minds of swithering voters as calling them fascist. The polarisation is politics is in part driven by the lazy use of such rhetoric.
In "How Fascism Works" Jason Stanley wrote the following:

Quote
[A] cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of humiliation brought on by supposed communists, Marxists and minorities and immigrants who are supposedly posing a threat to the character and the history of a nation ... The leader proposes that only he can solve it and all of his political opponents are enemies or traitors.

Now that would seem to be a fair description of many of Trump's characteristics and rhetorical style. But I would agree with you that it would be very difficult to call Trump an idealogue, since his his sole raison d'etre is about his own precious self, and is just using a Republican platform as a convenient means to this end. Any lie, any inflammatory statement to fire up his 'enthusiasts', any pretended religious sympathies (in which he doesn't believe) are grist to his mill - the glorification of his egregious narcissism and unlimited lust for power. Nietzsche is still our best teacher here. The astonishing thing for me as that so many Republicans - who can't all be so thick or insane as Marjorie Taylor Greene* - are prepared to swallow all this. Perhaps it's because one remarkable thing about Trump is his capacity to lie and lie with such ineluctable energy, when most people would have simply backed down. And therefore his supporters think he must be telling the truth. (Putin of course has a similar capacity).

*Marjorie Taylor Greene, by contrast, is an idealogue. But so batshit crazy, she's always good for a laugh.
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Le Bon David

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #637 on: October 29, 2024, 05:30:30 PM »
In "How Fascism Works" Jason Stanley wrote the following:

Now that would seem to be a fair description of many of Trump's characteristics and rhetorical style. But I would agree with you that it would be very difficult to call Trump an idealogue, since his his sole raison d'etre is about his own precious self, and is just using a Republican platform as a convenient means to this end. Any lie, any inflammatory statement to fire up his 'enthusiasts', any pretended religious sympathies (in which he doesn't believe) are grist to his mill - the glorification of his egregious narcissism and unlimited lust for power. Nietzsche is still our best teacher here. The astonishing thing for me as that so many Republicans - who can't all be so thick or insane as Marjorie Taylor Greene* - are prepared to swallow all this. Perhaps it's because one remarkable thing about Trump is his capacity to lie and lie with such ineluctable energy, when most people would have simply backed down. And therefore his supporters think he must be telling the truth. (Putin of course has a similar capacity).

*Marjorie Taylor Greene, by contrast, is an idealogue. But so batshit crazy, she's always good for a laugh.
If fascism is merely about demagoguery and lying then it's not an ideology. I think part of the problem is that many of those voting Republican see the Democrats as having failed, and ruined the economy, and lied - see Biden first being capable of being candidate for President, and then not, but still capable of being President. That combined with what feels like a world beset by war in which the President, and indeed the Vice President seem  like bystanders, and there is much to think that things might be better with someone else in charge.


Dicky Underpants

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #638 on: October 29, 2024, 05:52:40 PM »
If fascism is merely about demagoguery and lying then it's not an ideology.
Exactly.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #639 on: October 29, 2024, 05:58:11 PM »
Exactly.
  Then no one can be a 'fascist'.
 

Dicky Underpants

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #640 on: October 29, 2024, 06:34:09 PM »
  Then no one can be a 'fascist'.
I was looking through a list of possible definitions earlier, and it does seem particularly elusive. 'National Socialism' is easier, since it seems to blend into the kind of 'communism' evident in the former Soviet Union, something which glorifies the state above the individual, with a bigoted demagogue controlling the show.
That's not Trump, who would change his tune more often than I change my underpants (which is quite frequently :) ) if it suited his self-aggrandisement.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #641 on: October 29, 2024, 07:27:04 PM »
I was looking through a list of possible definitions earlier, and it does seem particularly elusive. 'National Socialism' is easier, since it seems to blend into the kind of 'communism' evident in the former Soviet Union, something which glorifies the state above the individual, with a bigoted demagogue controlling the show.
That's not Trump, who would change his tune more often than I change my underpants (which is quite frequently :) ) if it suited his self-aggrandisement.
Agree. It's one of the reasons why he is dangerous, and also why I think the fascist attacks are counterproductive.

Roses

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #642 on: October 30, 2024, 08:34:49 AM »
Last night my husband and I watched a Panorama programme about Trump called 'Trump: A second chance?' It was very scary, Trump and his supporters are as far right as you can get, I fear there could be a civil war, which ever way the vote goes next week! :o
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Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #643 on: October 30, 2024, 09:37:09 AM »
Last night my husband and I watched a Panorama programme about Trump called 'Trump: A second chance?' It was very scary, Trump and his supporters are as far right as you can get, I fear there could be a civil war, which ever way the vote goes next week! :o
Which policies of Trump, and the more than 75 million voters that he will get whether he wins or loses, do you regard ad 'as far right as you can get'?

Aruntraveller

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #644 on: October 30, 2024, 10:26:51 PM »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #645 on: October 30, 2024, 11:38:00 PM »
A startling collection of photos from the US, to do with this election:

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2024/oct/29/the-end-is-near-here-michael-dressel-photographs-from-the-fringes-of-us-society
Surely the problem is that the dystopian aspect means voting for more of the same - and the Democrats have had the President for 12 of the last 16 years - would be madness?

ETA - and I would see Trump as part of that more of the same.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2024, 12:12:32 AM by Nearly Sane »

SteveH

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #646 on: October 31, 2024, 05:57:12 AM »
  the Democrats have had the President for 12 of the last 16 years
Slightly misleading - they've also had it for 12 of the last 24 years.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #647 on: October 31, 2024, 06:21:49 AM »
Slightly misleading - they've also had it for 12 of the last 24 years.
Not at all misleading. Factually correct.

SteveH

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #648 on: October 31, 2024, 07:40:05 AM »
  Factually correct.
But misleading. Snapshot statistics often are.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: US Presidential Election 2024
« Reply #649 on: October 31, 2024, 10:23:51 AM »
But misleading. Snapshot statistics often are.
No, it's not misleading. It's a fact. If you think the Presidency is part of the way of making things better than past performance in recent times is relevant. Labour have been in govt for 13 of the last 27 years, was it misleading of Rachel Reeves to point out during the budget that the problems in investment in public services was due to 14 years of Tory govt?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2024, 10:42:21 AM by Nearly Sane »